Author Topic: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything  (Read 306130 times)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2720 on: May 17, 2023, 11:29:45 AM »
The shabbos status of Japan/NZ/Hawaii have absolutely nothing to do with crossing the dateline.

Who says so? (Hawaii is a separate issue altogether).

What is the din if you cross the international dateline and go to a place where there are no Yidden?

https://www.shut-halacha.co.il/q/%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%AA-%D7%A7%D7%95-%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9A-5902
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69444
  • Total likes: 18077
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2721 on: May 17, 2023, 11:31:57 AM »
What is the din if you cross the international dateline and go to a place where there are no Yidden?
Exactly the same if you didn't cross the dateline to get there. I'm not aware of any psak that crossing the dateline changes a thing.
Any island in the Pacific is going to have that shailah.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline chbochur

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 828
  • Total likes: 127
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2722 on: May 17, 2023, 11:47:55 AM »
The shabbos status of Japan/NZ/Hawaii have absolutely nothing to do with crossing the dateline. They are tough questions, and Lubavitch is indeed unique to the approach about this.
Rabbi AD Gancz gives a phenomenal shiur on shitas Chabad about those issues. I wish someone would record it, as I only heard it on Shavuos.

@dirah Are you aware of any horaa to avoid ever crossing the dateline?
https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/21/8066.htm
To the contrary. The rebbe seems to say they you can't asser crossing the dateline (speaking about shabbos)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2723 on: May 17, 2023, 12:10:18 PM »
https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/21/8066.htm
To the contrary. The rebbe seems to say they you can't asser crossing the dateline (speaking about shabbos)

In this letter the Rebbe is referring specifically to crossing the dateline at the moment Shabbos would come in on one side (and ostensibly end on the other side) and not have Shabbos at all. It doesn't discuss crossing at other times. I don't think anyone considers it an issur to cross, but there are those who avoid(ed) it.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2724 on: May 17, 2023, 04:34:10 PM »
Exactly the same if you didn't cross the dateline to get there. I'm not aware of any psak that crossing the dateline changes a thing.
Any island in the Pacific is going to have that shailah.

What if to Yiddishe couples arrived at the same location with no Jewish community, one couple crossed the dateline (for argument sake, let's say they came from LAX) and the other didn't (let's say they came from TLV). They're together at the same location, do they keep Shabbos on different days? What if it's a larger group in each direction, 3, 5, 9, 10? Would it make any difference if one group arrived before the other? What if everyone stayed there for several weeks (assuming you rule that they keep Shabbos on different days), does the ruling change for subsequent Shabbosim?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2413
  • Total likes: 2333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2725 on: May 17, 2023, 04:46:43 PM »
What if to Yiddishe couples arrived at the same location with no Jewish community, one couple crossed the dateline (for argument sake, let's say they came from LAX) and the other didn't (let's say they came from TLV). They're together at the same location, do they keep Shabbos on different days? What if it's a larger group in each direction, 3, 5, 9, 10? Would it make any difference if one group arrived before the other? What if everyone stayed there for several weeks (assuming you rule that they keep Shabbos on different days), does the ruling change for subsequent Shabbosim?
No because (as Dan said) the shabbos question is dependent on the geographic location, not whether or not the dateline was crossed traveling there.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69444
  • Total likes: 18077
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2726 on: May 17, 2023, 04:49:51 PM »
What if to Yiddishe couples arrived at the same location with no Jewish community, one couple crossed the dateline (for argument sake, let's say they came from LAX) and the other didn't (let's say they came from TLV). They're together at the same location, do they keep Shabbos on different days? What if it's a larger group in each direction, 3, 5, 9, 10? Would it make any difference if one group arrived before the other? What if everyone stayed there for several weeks (assuming you rule that they keep Shabbos on different days), does the ruling change for subsequent Shabbosim?
I'm lost.

Please explain how crossing the dateline affects when Shabbos is?

Most Chabad poskim will say to keep 1 day of Shabbos in Guam on the day the locals observe as Saturday, while most other poskim will say to keep 2, though possibly with only d'oraisahs on 1 day.

How you got there is irrelevant.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline chbochur

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 828
  • Total likes: 127
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2727 on: May 17, 2023, 05:10:49 PM »
In this letter the Rebbe is referring specifically to crossing the dateline at the moment Shabbos would come in on one side (and ostensibly end on the other side) and not have Shabbos at all. It doesn't discuss crossing at other times. I don't think anyone considers it an issur to cross, but there are those who avoid(ed) it.
Tht rebbe says no issue right before shabbos, for sure the rest of the week we are not worried about crossing because of shabbos concerns.
Is that not what @Dan was asking for?

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2728 on: May 17, 2023, 05:21:21 PM »
No because (as Dan said) the shabbos question is dependent on the geographic location, not whether or not the dateline was crossed traveling there.

And where do you draw the geographic line? @Dan mentions Guam, was it they who decided to redraw the line, or was it some other island?

IINM there are shittos that draw the line based on how the place was first inhabited (or how Yidden first arrived there).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69444
  • Total likes: 18077
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2729 on: May 17, 2023, 05:27:29 PM »
And where do you draw the geographic line? @Dan mentions Guam, was it they who decided to redraw the line, or was it some other island?

IINM there are shittos that draw the line based on how the place was first inhabited (or how Yidden first arrived there).
Again, these are tough questions that have nothing to do with how you got there.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2730 on: May 17, 2023, 05:30:02 PM »
Again, these are tough questions that have nothing to do with how you got there.

What if it's an uninhabited island? Part of the avoidance of crossing the dateline is the uncertainty about how it should be drawn.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline dirah

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 1285
  • Total likes: 28
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2731 on: May 17, 2023, 06:20:49 PM »
The bottom line is that there are a few Chassidim in Australia who avoided crossing the international dateline (IINM instructed to do so by the Rebbe).

I am unaware of any written הוראה, but you can definitely ask the Australian Groners (and IINM also the Serebrianskys, and possibly others).

@dirah Are you aware of any horaa to avoid ever crossing the dateline?

Yes, Reb Arel z”l has such a horaah that he kept meticulously. There may have been others, I don’t know. But was certainly not a הוראה לרבים.
I have also seen a Ksav Yad where the Rebbe advises the Dateline not to be crossed, not sefirah but some other part of the year, I don’t know the context.

Yeshiva shluchim to Australia also always flew with a stop in EY (and IINM also stops in the UK or Europe) on the way.
That began with the third Kvutzah who departed during Sefirah. So you could bring a proof to the contrary from the first two Kevutzos.

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4390
  • Total likes: 861
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2732 on: May 17, 2023, 06:27:09 PM »
@ExGingi the rebbe's letters might not be clear on which line we take, but one of the few things he does clearly refute is R' Kasher's suggestion that it's 'personal' depending on your own direction of arrival

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2733 on: May 17, 2023, 06:28:19 PM »
But was certainly not a הוראה לרבים.
No disagreement here.

That began with the third Kvutzah who departed during Sefirah. So you could bring a proof to the contrary from the first two Kevutzos.

When was the Rebbe first מעורר about the שבועות issue?

When did the first kvutzos go?

Bottom line is that there's no disagreement that this wasn't a הוראה לרבים, but definitely a הוראה for certain individuals. As I said, the fact that there are Halachic rulings don't negate the fact that there's a שאלה.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2734 on: May 17, 2023, 06:30:52 PM »
@ExGingi the rebbe's letters might not be clear on which line we take, but one of the few things he does clearly refute is R' Kasher's suggestion that it's 'personal' depending on your own direction of arrival

TBH, I didn't read Kasher's writings on this, but based on a synopsis given to me by my son I understood it to be dependent on how a place became inhabited first (by yidden?), and NOT "personal".
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 07:02:07 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2735 on: May 17, 2023, 06:39:27 PM »
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16351377.amp

What was a Yid to do if he was in Samoa when they shifted? What if 5 yidden arrived before the shift and 5 others after. Can they daven together on Shabbos (when is it)?

להבדיל others also have issues

https://atoday.org/samoa-the-international-dateline-shift-and-the-seventh-day-sabbath/
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69444
  • Total likes: 18077
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2736 on: May 17, 2023, 06:41:55 PM »
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16351377.amp

What was a Yid to do if he was in Samoa when they shifted? What if 5 yidden arrived before the shift and 5 others after. Can they daven together on Shabbos (when is it)?

להבדיל others also have issues

https://atoday.org/samoa-the-international-dateline-shift-and-the-seventh-day-sabbath/
I asked this shailah. The answer was not to go there for Shabbos.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2737 on: May 17, 2023, 06:53:35 PM »
Why get in shaalos about Shabbos?

Some people might be shocked to find out that there are Yidden out there, who feel more inconvenienced by putting themselves into halachic shaalos than having an ostensibly longer journey, or having to miss out on certain things.
Because there is none regarding crossing the dateline? Show me a horaah or letter advising this?

I asked this shailah. The answer was not to go there for Shabbos.

I understand that you feel this has nothing to do with the direction one is traveling, but in a hypothetical of landing on an uninhabited island (or being on a cruise in the vicinity), I would think it does matter (especially according to R' Kasher).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 18046
  • Total likes: 8272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2738 on: May 17, 2023, 06:54:38 PM »
I asked this shailah. The answer was not to go there for Shabbos.

Ever?

Would it be somewhat of an accurate portrayal if we said that I say that not every question has an answer, while you say there is an answer (even if it doesn't answer everything)?

BTW, I think the מציאות of space travel is supportive of R' Kasher's shitta.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 07:00:16 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline dirah

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 1285
  • Total likes: 28
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2739 on: May 17, 2023, 07:31:01 PM »
When was the Rebbe first מעורר about the שבועות issue?

When did the first kvutzos go?


Long before.

With regards to the Dateline in general, the Rebbe’s famous letter to Rabbi Wilshanski was 5709. I believe (but not certain) that the Horaah to Reb Arel was already in the Yuds.

Regarding Sefirah, the Rebbe discussed in a Sicha in 5717. The letter to Rabbi Abramson a”h about Sefirah was 5721, and in it the Rebbe writes that its already some time that he has expressed his view that people should not cross the deadline during Sefirah and cause Shavuos to be a different date. There was also the famous incident that year involving Reb Yoel Kahn.

The first Kevutzah of Shluchim was 5727.