Author Topic: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything  (Read 312944 times)

Online Ver hut gazugt

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2940 on: July 18, 2023, 11:02:21 PM »
Really interesting! But I have a hard time with this Chassidish Torah thing of completely switching the simple accepted pshat of something to the opposite. I guess I'm too much of a misnaged...
what is the simple Pshat? Asking Seriously. To many inconsistencies to me at least in the poshut pshat.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 11:08:54 PM by Ver hut gazugt »

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2941 on: July 18, 2023, 11:13:44 PM »
what is the simple Pshat? Asking Seriously. To many inconsistencies to me at least in the poshut pshat.
That she is a no-good-rotten-good-for-nothing-straight-up-reshanta, without any redeeming factors, and what she said is straight-up evil, and a tremendous chutzpah.

Offline Cholentfresser

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2942 on: July 18, 2023, 11:22:50 PM »
And yet the Rebbe found a way to be me'lamed zchus on a yiddishe neshama that couldn't find rest..
In order to understand recursion, you first need to understand recursion.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2943 on: July 18, 2023, 11:25:47 PM »
And yet the Rebbe found a way to be me'lamed zchus on a yiddishe neshama that couldn't find rest..
Again, I'm not a chossid. My mesorah dictates that there is something called a rosha and the chachomim punished the family for a reason, and although we have no idea how she was judged in Shomayim, it is the proper thing to shun her and NOT say that she said something nice.

Again, I am not a chossid. And I stick to my mesorah.

Online Ver hut gazugt

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2944 on: July 18, 2023, 11:28:18 PM »
That she is a no-good-rotten-good-for-nothing-straight-up-reshanta, and what she said is straight-up evil, and a tremendous chutzpah.
ok, but in what way did she say it scorn, anger, contempt? And why would she express it in such a manner?

The way I see it she sounds angry but why be angry if you do not believe in itís sanctity. At what and who are you angry at?

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2945 on: July 18, 2023, 11:31:50 PM »
Again, I'm not a chossid. My mesorah dictates that there is something called a rosha and the chachomim punished the family for a reason, and although we have no idea how she was judged in Shomayim, it is the proper thing to shun her and NOT say that she said something nice.

Again, I am not a chossid. And I stick to my mesorah.

I dont think the rebbe is saying what she did was ok, fine and dandy. But her true essence came out and can be seen even when she was in such a state.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2946 on: July 18, 2023, 11:34:47 PM »
ok, but in what way did she say it scorn, anger, contempt? And why would she express it in such a manner?

The way I see it she sounds angry but why be angry if you do not believe in itís sanctity. At what and who are you angry at?
I recently learned this gemarah. When I learned it, I learned it as scorn and maybe contempt, not anger. I came to that conclusion from her saying "Lukas Lukas," which I took as being an a scornful manner. It was as if she was saying, "lowly wolf, you eat the animal but are not even good enough to help your people."

And regarding the ending of "Tov Letzadik Tov Leshchainu," I learned simply like the Marsha, without even seeing it inside. This type of thing, to add a good ending, is found in multiple places, like the last Rashi in Bava Kama, in which he adds the word "Tov".

I dont think the rebbe is saying what she did was ok, fine and dandy. But her true essence came out and can be seen even when she was in such a state.

I understand that. I was wondering about it, but after I followed Dan's link and read the article, it clarified that. I don't think it's a bad pshat. I just think it's what I call a "chassidish" pshat, which is too far beyond the boundaries of the simple pshat for me to appreciate, being that I'm a non-chossid.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2947 on: July 18, 2023, 11:36:07 PM »
Really interesting! But I have a hard time with this Chassidish Torah thing of completely switching the simple accepted pshat of something to the opposite. I guess I'm too much of a misnaged...

The Rebbe's Torah doesn't change pshat at all. On the contrary, it's saying despite all that you mention about her being true, what is that bothers her when she "confronts" the Eibishter? That's not to say the demonstrably not good things what she did were good or praiseworthy. The Rebbe's Torah shows us how the Rebbe chooses to look at another Yid. You can choose to focus on the evil they did or do, or you can choose the Rebbe's approach: the gemara isn't intrested in just bad mouthing a Yid for the heck of it. Obviously there must be a lesson, and if the lesson is one as positive as "tov l'tzadik", clearly the person teaching us the lesson has *some* kind of Zechus.

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2948 on: July 18, 2023, 11:38:40 PM »
The Rebbe's Torah doesn't change pshat at all. On the contrary, it's saying despite all that you mention about her being true, what is that bothers her when she "confronts" the Eibishter? That's not to say the demonstrably not good things what she did were good or praiseworthy. The Rebbe's Torah shows us how the Rebbe chooses to look at another Yid. You can choose to focus on the evil they did or do, or you can choose the Rebbe's approach: the gemara isn't intrested in just bad mouthing a Yid for the heck of it. Obviously there must be a lesson, and if the lesson is one as positive as "tov l'tzadik", clearly the person teaching us the lesson has *some* kind of Zechus.
It's a nice concept, to love everyone and to see the good even in bad people. I just find it hard to do it on someone that the chachomim specifically called out for condemnation.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2949 on: July 18, 2023, 11:50:35 PM »
I just think it's what I call a "chassidish" pshat, which is too far beyond the boundaries of the simple pshat for me to appreciate, being that I'm a non-chossid.

With respect, this is a kop out. It's not a different pshat. Pshat of the gemara is the same with it without the Rebbe's Torah. The Rebbe's Torah is a deeper layer within the pshat. Chassidus is part of Torah, it's not an expendable pirush.

One of the hallmarks of the Rebbe's teachings is sticking to the simple pshat. If a teaching of the Rebbe seems to stray too far from "pshat", then the issue is your understanding of the Rebbe's teaching or pshat.

Case in point:

It's a nice concept, to love everyone and to see the good even in bad people. I just find it hard to do it on someone that the chachomim specifically called out for condemnation.

That's the whole point! Even such a person, someone who sunk to the lowest depths one could fathom, even as they act in the most disrespectful way in the holiest of places, they *still* cry out in defense of yidden. That is literally pshat. That is the most simple, basic understanding of the story. It's just a matter of focus. Are you focusing on her evil, and disregarding the concern for yidden as incidental, or are you going to focus on what the lesson is for me today, which can't be just to let me know how evil she was, but must be something more powerful and relevant.

Online Ver hut gazugt

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2950 on: July 18, 2023, 11:54:39 PM »
which I took as being an a scornful manner. It was as if she was saying, "lowly wolf, you eat the animal but are not even good enough to help your people."
but that is not the Gemaras Lashon, 

For clarity here is the lashon:  לוֹקוּס לוֹקוּס! עַד מָתַי אַתָּה מְכַלֶּה מָמוֹנָן שֶׁל יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאִי אַתָּה עוֹמֵד עֲלֵיהֶם בִּשְׁעַת הַדְּחָק!
Ad mosie does not sound like scorn. Plus why would she hit with her slipper if it was scorn?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 11:57:43 PM by Ver hut gazugt »

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2951 on: July 18, 2023, 11:59:00 PM »
That is literally pshat. That is the most simple, basic understanding of the story.
I learned this multiple times, and that never seemed to me to be the simple pshat. The simple pshat is that she was mocking Hashem. Not crying out for the defense of Yidden.

To reinforce my thinking on this, she was condemned by the Chachomim to the point that her entire Mishmar was punished. So simple pshat remains that her actions were irredeemable.

Now that this is said, I read a beautiful pshat from the Lubabvitcher Rebbe that gives a whole NEW perspective on this. But being that I'm a non-chossid, I can't appreciate the pshat, although a do appreciate the idea of seeing the good in bad Jews.

You can disagree. I am in no way an expert in the Torah of the Lubabvitcher Rebbe. But I do know how I learned this gemara every time I learned it.

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2952 on: July 19, 2023, 12:10:49 AM »
OK, so do the lubavitchers here eat meat at a siyum during the 9 days?
I once asked when attending such a siyum anyway and was told not to eat meat.
Sounds like you can eat meat with no issues, just don't take the whole idea lightly.

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2953 on: July 19, 2023, 12:11:45 AM »
Sounds like you can eat meat with no issues, just don't take the whole idea lightly.
Curious if other Lubabs do this...
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2954 on: July 19, 2023, 12:30:14 AM »
Curious if other Lubabs do this...
Seems pretty clear that the Rebbe would, so isn't that what counts? :)

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2955 on: July 19, 2023, 12:40:03 AM »
Curious if other Lubabs do this...


Offline Dan

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Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2957 on: July 19, 2023, 12:52:21 AM »
.
From your link -
Quote
Perhaps, thatís the reason why a custom developed not to serve meat at siyumim other than where necessary.

Additionally, when it comes to eating meat, there are certain restrictions as to what constitutes a siyum, and whether itís permitted to schedule it deliberately for the nine days, as well as restrictions on who can attend a siyum with meat. For all these reasons, many are accustomed not to serve meat and such occasions.

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2958 on: July 19, 2023, 01:08:22 AM »
Too many inconsistencies to me at least in the poshut pshat.
One of the questions that the Rebbe raises is why was her mishmar punished specifically for this that she said about the מזבח and not for the the sin of abandoning Judaism and marrying a Greek which are much more severe issues.

I do not understand this question at all. There is no reason why the mishmar should suffer for those things, its only because of what she said about the mizbeach which she had picked up from her parents that is the reason to knas the mishmar. The Gemora explicitly notes this.

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2959 on: July 19, 2023, 09:03:30 AM »
Plus why would she hit with her slipper if it was scorn?
Can you explain this question? Hitting it with her sandals sounds very scornful to me.