Poll

Do you contribute to retirement funds?

No
 Contribute <15% of take home pay
Contribute >15% of take home pay
Max out all retirement funds

Author Topic: Retirement Funds  (Read 66038 times)

Offline Euclid

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #100 on: April 14, 2021, 04:56:45 PM »
1) It's also fairly common to get a second opinion from a second advisor. 2) If you are willing to do the investing yourself, you won't be charged for that. If you want the advisor to manage your accounts you're paying for that, not the advice. (I disagree with @aygart, they are selling advice AND products)

Like any salesman, the advisor is going to be making commissions and profits from what they advise you to do. Some will be honest and advise you on what is best for you, some will advise you to buy things that will earn them more, just the same as the car salesman, realtor, sheitel macher, etc.
Ah okay - we're agreeing. I was talking about a (mythical?) advisor who only offers advice, and doesn't do any of the actual investing nor selling of a commissioned product.
For instance, I went to @ExGingi who gave me excellent advice, refused a penny in payment, and didn't sell me a single product. As it happens, I will be in the market for products he sells and you can bet I will be heading to his door. But the fact that he makes commissions or whatever on some of the products he advises people to buy doesn't make that advice bad or dishonest.
I wasn't ch"v trying to disparage anyone specifically, and I'm sure there are plenty of them who try to be as objective as possible. However, as a consumer, I have an underlying suspicion of advisors who are also looking to make commission on the investments. Like I wouldn't go to a hedge fund manager for advice on how I should invest my millions.

Offline Euclid

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #101 on: April 14, 2021, 05:00:41 PM »
Is that always true?
I hedged by saying "usually" ;)

How common are these complex investments that only a professional financial advisor could do it?
What type of investments are you referring to?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #102 on: April 14, 2021, 05:15:37 PM »
I hedged by saying "usually" ;)

How common are these complex investments that only a professional financial advisor could do it?
What type of investments are you referring to?

Lets say for example Fixed Index Annuities, or IUL. Those are complex products, and IMHO even most people selling them don't understand them properly. That doesn't mean that they don't have a place.

Also, some things might sound very good, but one needs to understand various relevant aspects prior to making a decision. For example, many people would look into tax deferral, but did they actually properly think through as to what the consequences will be now and in the future? Do they think they will be paying less taxes in the future than they would be paying now? How will future taxable income affect anything else in their life?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ShimshonK

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2021, 01:10:14 AM »
or you can speak with someone at an hourly rate
Have you found someone who does this?
Ah okay - we're agreeing. I was talking about a (mythical?) advisor who only offers advice, and doesn't do any of the actual investing nor selling of a commissioned product.
I thought there were advisors like that out there.
I definitely know of one in Lakewood, though I believe he no longer takes clients of that nature (he primarily works on a different part of the investment industry).

Offline Euclid

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2021, 01:42:51 AM »
I thought there were advisors like that out there.
I definitely know of one in Lakewood, though I believe he no longer takes clients of that nature (he primarily works on a different part of the investment industry).
I also know of one who transitioned to the corporate side of the industry. It would seem that there isn't enough of a revenue stream for someone to do ["objective"] advising full time.

It's unfortunate because there are many people with a relatively small amount of money who could use a simple investment plan, one which they can execute themselves without needing to pay residual fees (and/or be sold products that aren't optimal for their stage/age).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 02:00:40 AM by Euclid »

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2021, 07:21:12 AM »
It's unfortunate because there are many people with a relatively small amount of money who could use a simple investment plan, one which they can execute themselves without needing to pay residual fees (and/or be sold products that aren't optimal for their stage/age).

As I’ve explained. The regulatory overhead has become so heavy and burdensome, that its simply a money losing situation to take on client/accounts unless they are really big. It pains me sometimes that I can’t help or advise people who come to me for help. But if I would take on their account I would be subjecting myself to too much liability without adequate compensation for even the time spent.

In a recent case I advised a client of what I believed would be the client’s most optimal strategy. And while there was a small life insurance sale in it, I gave the client an education and my opinion on the appropriate investment strategy for the client, but declined to actually take the client money and execute it for for the client.

And believe me. I didn’t come to the first or second meeting with a life insurance proposal. I actually spent time listening, then tried a few (paid) software platforms to illustrate to test various scenarios, and illustrate it to the client. The client’s best interests always come first. And while the client liked what I presented, the client didn’t end up following my suggestions fully (it did involve taking a current tax hit in order to be in a better position down the line).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Euclid

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #106 on: April 19, 2021, 08:30:21 AM »
As I’ve explained. The regulatory overhead has become so heavy and burdensome, that its simply a money losing situation to take on client/accounts unless they are really big. It pains me sometimes that I can’t help or advise people who come to me for help. But if I would take on their account I would be subjecting myself to too much liability without adequate compensation for even the time spent.

In a recent case I advised a client of what I believed would be the client’s most optimal strategy. And while there was a small life insurance sale in it, I gave the client an education and my opinion on the appropriate investment strategy for the client, but declined to actually take the client money and execute it for for the client.

And believe me. I didn’t come to the first or second meeting with a life insurance proposal. I actually spent time listening, then tried a few (paid) software platforms to illustrate to test various scenarios, and illustrate it to the client. The client’s best interests always come first. And while the client liked what I presented, the client didn’t end up following my suggestions fully (it did involve taking a current tax hit in order to be in a better position down the line).
Thank you for this write up!

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #107 on: April 19, 2021, 09:07:37 AM »
I also know of one who transitioned to the corporate side of the industry. It would seem that there isn't enough of a revenue stream for someone to do ["objective"] advising full time.

It's unfortunate because there are many people with a relatively small amount of money who could use a simple investment plan, one which they can execute themselves without needing to pay residual fees (and/or be sold products that aren't optimal for their stage/age).
One doesn’t need financial advisors to do that.

Offline Euclid

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #108 on: April 19, 2021, 09:37:22 AM »
One doesn’t need financial advisors to do that.
Sure, if someone has the time/resources to do the research themselves (and not get stuck in analysis paralysis), then kol hakavod they have no need for it.

Offline aygart

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #109 on: April 19, 2021, 10:33:17 AM »
As I’ve explained. The regulatory overhead has become so heavy and burdensome, that its simply a money losing situation to take on client/accounts unless they are really big. It pains me sometimes that I can’t help or advise people who come to me for help. But if I would take on their account I would be subjecting myself to too much liability without adequate compensation for even the time spent.

In a recent case I advised a client of what I believed would be the client’s most optimal strategy. And while there was a small life insurance sale in it, I gave the client an education and my opinion on the appropriate investment strategy for the client, but declined to actually take the client money and execute it for for the client.

And believe me. I didn’t come to the first or second meeting with a life insurance proposal. I actually spent time listening, then tried a few (paid) software platforms to illustrate to test various scenarios, and illustrate it to the client. The client’s best interests always come first. And while the client liked what I presented, the client didn’t end up following my suggestions fully (it did involve taking a current tax hit in order to be in a better position down the line).
(I am coming to be mosif not to diagree)
I think there is more to this. When someone is looking to invest their chasuna gifts and the money the newlywed wife earns over their expenses and the like, they will not be ready to spend the money needed to compensate someone competent for an appointment. If he charges low enough that they will be willing to come he will need to have so many clients that it will be impossible for him to make enough compensation. The only way it makes sense will be for him to get residual fees that eventually build up and hope that some clients eventually invest more and/or have use for more extensive services. Otherwise it will soimply not be financially viable for the advisor.

Sure, if someone has the time/resources to do the research themselves (and not get stuck in analysis paralysis), then kol hakavod they have no need for it.
The amount they will gain from research between various diversified mutual funds will barely be worth the time spent. It doesn't take an advisor to invest in an index fund or even to mix various market caps etc.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #110 on: April 19, 2021, 11:42:27 AM »
(I am coming to be mosif not to diagree)
I think there is more to this. When someone is looking to invest their chasuna gifts and the money the newlywed wife earns over their expenses and the like, they will not be ready to spend the money needed to compensate someone competent for an appointment. If he charges low enough that they will be willing to come he will need to have so many clients that it will be impossible for him to make enough compensation. The only way it makes sense will be for him to get residual fees that eventually build up and hope that some clients eventually invest more and/or have use for more extensive services. Otherwise it will soimply not be financially viable for the advisor.
The amount they will gain from research between various diversified mutual funds will barely be worth the time spent. It doesn't take an advisor to invest in an index fund or even to mix various market caps etc.
you're suggesting that there's a single 'cookie viewer' product (or family of products) that is advisable for most 'small money', to take the place of the proverbial savings account, somplace to park a few k 'until they figure it out'.

Go ahead and name it

Offline AsherO

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #111 on: April 19, 2021, 12:15:10 PM »
you're suggesting that there's a single 'cookie viewer' product (or family of products) that is advisable for most 'small money', to take the place of the proverbial savings account, somplace to park a few k 'until they figure it out'.

Go ahead and name it

This probably changes all the time based on current product offerings and market conditions.

Would be nice to have a blog or site that did the analysis for you and published it periodically, but to make money they'd have to get referral commissions and thus be biased and only recommend what they could make money on.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline gozalim

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #112 on: April 19, 2021, 12:52:45 PM »
This probably changes all the time based on current product offerings and market conditions.

Would be nice to have a blog or site that did the analysis for you and published it periodically, but to make money they'd have to get referral commissions and thus be biased and only recommend what they could make money on.
there was a time that doc was useful for this.

Truth is, if you want up to date best, get an advisor. What I meant is, some here are suggesting, that for 'meanwhile' there are indexes out similar that are good go to

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #113 on: April 19, 2021, 01:16:18 PM »
there was a time that doc was useful for this.

Truth is, if you want up to date best, get an advisor. What I meant is, some here are suggesting, that for 'meanwhile' there are indexes out similar that are good go to


There are mixes of vanguard funds that can work for most people. I don't know them yet

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #114 on: April 19, 2021, 01:48:03 PM »

There are mixes of vanguard funds that can work for most people. I don't know them yet

1. There's a big difference between a one shot large investment vs regular periodic investments.

2. If long term investing, pick an asset mix that you're comfortable with, invest and rebalance periodically (on a regular schedule).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline gozalim

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #115 on: April 19, 2021, 09:16:24 PM »
1. There's a big difference between a one shot large investment vs regular periodic investments.

2. If long term investing, pick an asset mix that you're comfortable with, invest and rebalance periodically (on a regular schedule).
robo advisor should do this well

Offline dovy2

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2021, 09:08:07 PM »
you're suggesting that there's a single 'cookie viewer' product (or family of products) that is advisable for most 'small money', to take the place of the proverbial savings account, somplace to park a few k 'until they figure it out'.

Go ahead and name it
For almost all low-income earners (-most newly wed kollel yungerleit, rebbi's and morah's), maxing out a ROTH IRA for both spouses..
I just found out about this now.. if I would have done this 10 years ago.. I could have had double my earnings at 60...
Especially now with the stimulus and CTC's coming up...

Offline farmbochur

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2021, 10:14:15 PM »


you're suggesting that there's a single 'cookie viewer' product (or family of products) that is advisable for most 'small money', to take the place of the proverbial savings account, somplace to park a few k 'until they figure it out'.

Go ahead and name it

Are you likely to be a steady buyer over the next 5+ years?

If yes, VTSAX.
Risk is opportunity

Offline bubkiz

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #118 on: April 20, 2021, 11:06:25 PM »
For almost all low-income earners (-most newly wed kollel yungerleit, rebbi's and morah's), maxing out a ROTH IRA for both spouses..
I just found out about this now.. if I would have done this 10 years ago.. I could have had double my earnings at 60...
Especially now with the stimulus and CTC's coming up...
+1
Roth IRA is the way to go for these situations. Earnings do not have any impact on programs or the EITC (for which the cap on investment income was raised to $10,000 going forward).
 Also it is not considered an asset for college financial aid while the earnings can be withdrawn for higher education use making a ROTH IRA ideal for teens who have earned income instead of a savings account for those Pell grant eligible.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 11:09:33 PM by bubkiz »

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Retirement Funds
« Reply #119 on: April 21, 2021, 01:08:44 AM »
For almost all low-income earners (-most newly wed kollel yungerleit, rebbi's and morah's), maxing out a ROTH IRA for both spouses..
I just found out about this now.. if I would have done this 10 years ago.. I could have had double my earnings at 60...
Especially now with the stimulus and CTC's coming up...

OK, and where are you parking the Roth IRA money?