Author Topic: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas  (Read 18753 times)

Offline Tzioni

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2021, 09:11:21 AM »
Source?
I have a first hand source on this with the names of the mosdos that brought this issue to light, but I am not a reporter, this is a forum for discussion
In Israeli government there are people with power who don't have to answer to anyone. The main guy involved with granting ishurim, was shown an advertisement of someone offering to arrange an ishur for $10k. That ticked him off, and he halted the whole student visa process. I do not believe that there were more than a few willing to pay... But once Amnon decided, there is nothing anyone can do.


Lol. The Israeli economy produces ~$400B a year. The annual government budget alone is close to $150B. Do you seriously think it depends on a few hundred million dollar in donations?

FYI Israelis spend more money on tourism abroad than tourists spend in Israel (and that includes all tourists, not only your frum saviors). This past year has proven tourism is far from necessary for Israel. It's less than 5% of GDP. And forex isn't a thing, the Bank of Israel bought over $30B just to keep the shekel from getting even stronger than it did (essentially a windfall of $30B that didn't cost anything), while total annual tourism spend is much less that that.
You are confusing tourist, such as a chinese guy who spends a certain amount a day on food/travel/stay. I'm referring to the guys who spend a couple bucks a day when they are there, and then leave a couple million $ check to sponsor a building, and help with the funding of the yeshivos. That is not included in what the government counts as tourism

Pathetic victimhood with zero logic.
Not sure why you are so sensitive to someone pointing out that this is also an economic issue. The fact is, that frum tourism brings in enough money, that the economy does need it.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 09:44:35 AM by Tzioni »

Offline Yehudaa

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2021, 10:08:52 AM »
Some will view it as the price of doing business.
A real light unto the nations.

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2021, 10:10:59 AM »
Starting to understand how we're so familiar with Otisville. Laws and rules are optional, dependent on one's personal views on fairness and halacha.
My point is that optional is a strong way of putting it. A open door system is going to be taken advantage of, and unless something is very clearly morally wrong many people don't think twice. Of course the amount of frum jews in Ottisville is a disgrace, at the same time the justice system has its fallacies, as anyone following the Bibi situation is aware of (also, is "cattle prod rabbi" a hero or a villain?). How close the law is to a moral compass seems complex to me, especially for a Frum jew, and its hard to judge people for different views on that. In halacha one is alowed to pasken for himself according to his understanding but not for others. Afaik in the times of the sanhedrin this was not a defense from prosecution. The intentional dissonance between דיני אדם and דיני שמים is part of the complexity of the Jewish moral compass, especially when it come to law.
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Offline yzj

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2021, 10:58:23 AM »



Offline fresar

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2021, 10:59:41 AM »
No. It is wrong, plain and simple. I am the first one to see things from a different perspective, but there is no excusing this behavior.

Disagree, not wrong at all!

Offline yelped

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2021, 11:00:41 AM »
Disagree, not wrong at all!
Explain.

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2021, 03:16:55 AM »
Let's get the facts straight. There were very few permits that were outright 'sold'. There were some mosdos, who had big donors that want to come to EY, and they facilitated their entry ishur through the student visa/ishur.
Chag sameach

Umm...



This was more than just a favor being done out of hakoras hatov, it's sort of like a business deal.
This all goes back to the tzionim being brainwashed that the chareidim are takers. The fact is that the Israeli economy would not survive without the money being poured in by frum people all over the world. Every block has a shul/yeshiva which was paid at least in part by hundreds of millions of dollars of donations annually. The frum tourists are essential to the economy.
Now the current law does allow for entry for economic reasons. So why isn't this part of the economy recognised?
Chag sameach

So get your permit through that part of the law. Dont ruin it for legitimate students.
Why is your coming for Lag BaOmer (or to see your rebbe/RY, or your cousins wedding...) more important than Avreichim (who live in Israel!) being able to come back in to the country????

Online AsherO

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2021, 07:43:15 AM »
Umm...

So get your permit through that part of the law. Dont ruin it for legitimate students.
Why is your coming for Lag BaOmer (or to see your rebbe/RY, or your cousins wedding...) more important than Avreichim (who live in Israel!) being able to come back in to the country????


The schools have authority to request visas for their students (and families) and some are apparently requesting student visas for donors who never had plans of coming to Israel to study and are just piggybacking on this legal visa opportunity to illegitimately buy themselves a visa.
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Offline Tzioni

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2021, 11:12:55 AM »

So get your permit through that part of the law. Dont ruin it for legitimate students.
Why is your coming for Lag BaOmer (or to see your rebbe/RY, or your cousins wedding...) more important than Avreichim (who live in Israel!) being able to come back in to the country????

That is a fair question. It's terrible that the outcome was damaging to Avreichim and to the chashuva askonim (Chaim vachesed etc) who work so hard on behalf of the Yungerleit. But you know how it works in US, the gov makes a bill called stimulus, and they include things that have nothing to do with stimulus, and same for health care etc. It's politics, and it's done everywhere. So if this is the loophole for gaining entry, then it's the way things are done. In 1 city in Canada, the lockdown laws forbade shuls, but allowed theaters, so a certain shul, officially became a small theater. They did what they had to do. If that ruined things for some other small theaters, it might be a shame, but they are allowed to have the opinion that what they did was not wrong (and you can have the opinion that what they did is wrong, that totally fine).
I'm just saying that it's not like terrible abuse was going on with the student entry system. It was a being used as a loophole for something legitimate, and in a country like Israel where everything gets done through connections, it's the norm. You want to apply to make an extension to your house in IL, it will cost you years and much $, for no reason. So people look for loopholes or protextia...

Offline yelped

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2021, 11:17:22 AM »
Come on, @Tzioni. No one needed this loophole. If someone has an emergency and needed to be in EY now, he was able to go with legitimate means.

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2021, 11:25:37 AM »
Come on, @Tzioni. No one needed this loophole. If someone has an emergency and needed to be in EY now, he was able to go with legitimate means.
From the reports here those means are not simple at all
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Tzioni

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2021, 11:27:33 AM »
Come on, @Tzioni. No one needed this loophole. If someone has an emergency and needed to be in EY now, he was able to go with legitimate means.
First of all, that is totally not true. I know a few people who could not get in for the most legitimate reasons - father-in-law's levaya etc.
Second of all, I was referring to my original comment about the gov was upset that someone who raises tens of millions of dollars every year, used this loophole to bring in a few donors. For someone like that, I have the opinion that nothing is wrong with using a loophole, in a country ... You can have the opinion that what he did is wrong, but I'm just using this public, and anonymous form to express my opinion, of kol hakavod to him for his chashuva work, and you can judge him how ever you want, but usualy with these things, you gotta know the full story before judging and bashing...

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2021, 11:43:17 AM »
First of all, that is totally not true. I know a few people who could not get in for the most legitimate reasons - father-in-law's levaya etc.
Second of all, I was referring to my original comment about the gov was upset that someone who raises tens of millions of dollars every year, used this loophole to bring in a few donors. For someone like that, I have the opinion that nothing is wrong with using a loophole, in a country ... You can have the opinion that what he did is wrong, but I'm just using this public, and anonymous form to express my opinion, of kol hakavod to him for his chashuva work, and you can judge him how ever you want, but usualy with these things, you gotta know the full story before judging and bashing...

Without actual knowledge of specific "loopholes" being used, and therefore not forming an opinion one way or the other, going by what seems to be reported on this thread, I would argue that there's a difference between a loophole and outright dishonesty.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Tzioni

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2021, 11:50:47 AM »
Without actual knowledge of specific "loopholes" being used, and therefore not forming an opinion one way or the other, going by what seems to be reported on this thread, I would argue that there's a difference between a loophole and outright dishonesty.
So the shul that operated as a theater, because they saw no deference in 30 people being in a room to watch a screen or to pray. Is that outright dishonesty? is that a loophole? I don't know, but I can understand their reasoning and not bash them as bad people.
The fact is that you cannot get into Israel for a relative's wedding, levaya or other good purpose. So if people did use this 'loophole', even if some consider it dishonest, they can still be judged favorably

Offline Euclid

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2021, 11:52:35 AM »
but officer

Offline yelped

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2021, 11:55:08 AM »
From the reports here those means are not simple at all
So? Doesn't give them a right or even an excuse to blatantly behave this way. And to top it all off, for some guy to publicly advertise that he can get anyone, of any age (!) a permit for $10,000(!). How much gall can one have?

ETA: @aygart I know you were not defending anyone.

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2021, 11:55:11 AM »
So the shul that operated as a theater, because they saw no deference in 30 people being in a room to watch a screen or to pray. Is that outright dishonesty? is that a loophole? I don't know, but I can understand their reasoning and not bash them as bad people.
The fact is that you cannot get into Israel for a relative's wedding, levaya or other good purpose. So if people did use this 'loophole', even if some consider it dishonest, they can still be judged favorably
I am sure all of the bachurim who were stuck without entry permits will feel like this.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Lurker

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2021, 12:00:15 PM »
Without actual knowledge of specific "loopholes" being used, and therefore not forming an opinion one way or the other, going by what seems to be reported on this thread, I would argue that there's a difference between a loophole and outright dishonesty.

+1. There seems to be lack of nuance... yet again. Just some SJW thoughts:
- Comparing this to trying to keep a shul open... yea.
- Using a loophole is exploiting an ambiguity in the rules. Lying is not that.
- There is a difference between acts which one does with no harm to others, and acts which impact others.
- No one is perfect. To do things that are wrong is one thing. After it goes south, to lack accountability and claim nothing wrong was done... C'mon, man.
- That one of the people who issued these visas happens to do great things in his life doesn't make it any better. If anything, it makes it worse because he has greater responsibility. First, on the account that he is a highly visible and respected person. Second, if c"v this episode harms his ability to continue any of his good works in any way, how can he take that risk?
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Offline Tzioni

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2021, 12:18:13 PM »
+1. There seems to be lack of nuance... yet again. Just some SJW thoughts:
- Comparing this to trying to keep a shul open... yea.
- Using a loophole is exploiting an ambiguity in the rules. Lying is not that.
- There is a difference between acts which one does with no harm to others, and acts which impact others.
- No one is perfect. To do things that are wrong is one thing. After it goes south, to lack accountability and claim nothing wrong was done... C'mon, man.
- That one of the people who issued these visas happens to do great things in his life doesn't make it any better. If anything, it makes it worse because he has greater responsibility. First, on the account that he is a highly visible and respected person. Second, if c"v this episode harms his ability to continue any of his good works in any way, how can he take that risk?

You're all over DDF against anyone who differed than your thoughts on corona minyanim, weddings, etc. That's great. Makes conversation. There 2 or 3 others who also feel the need to look down on others. The world spins around. Won't be long before you'll have your day needing some life hack that others will look down on...

Offline Lurker

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Re: Israel Halting Student visas for now due to fraudulent visas
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2021, 12:20:28 PM »
You're all over DDF against anyone who differed than your thoughts on corona minyanim, weddings, etc. That's great. Makes conversation. There 2 or 3 others who also feel the need to look down on others. The world spins around. Won't be long before you'll have your day needing some life hack that others will look down on...

Way to counter the points. I think I just got cancelled  :-X
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