Poll

Guilty?

No
17 (47.2%)
Yes
19 (52.8%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Guilty?  (Read 9078 times)

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2021, 09:50:32 PM »
Who cares about those nuts?

Apparently the judge did, because he refused to move the trial.

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #101 on: April 20, 2021, 09:53:51 PM »
Apparently the judge did, because he refused to move the trial.
He refused because there was no reason to move it.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #102 on: April 20, 2021, 10:01:29 PM »
Jury instructions are here - https://www.mncourts.gov/media/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin

If pinning him down didn't cause the death, that's not manslaughter.

Quote
Second Element: The Defendant caused the death of George Floyd, by culpable negligence, whereby the Defendant created an unreasonable risk and consciously took chance of causing death or great bodily harm. “Culpable negligence” is intentional conduct that the Defendant may not have intended to be harmful but that an ordinary and reasonably prudent person would recognize as involving strong probability of injury to others.

Does the definition given of "culpable negligence" not fit what happened?
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #103 on: April 20, 2021, 10:01:53 PM »
Jury instructions are here - https://www.mncourts.gov/media/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin
Great link.

So which element is the issue for those feel he is not guilty?

The elements of the crime of Murder in the Second Degree while committing felony are:
First Element: The death of George Floyd must be proven.
Second Element: The Defendant caused the death of George Floyd.
Third Element: The Defendant, at the time of causing the death of George Floyd, was committing or attempting to commit the felony offense of Assault in the Third Degree. It is not necessary for the State to prove the Defendant had an intent to kill George Floyd, but it must prove that the Defendant committed or attempted to commit the underlying felony of Assault in the Third Degree.
There are two elements of Assault in the Third Degree:
(l) Defendant assaulted George Floyd.
“Assault” is the intentional infliction of bodily harm upon another or the attempt to inflict bodily harm upon another. The intentional infliction of bodily harm requires proof that the Defendant intentionally applied unlawful force to another person without that person’s consent and that this act resulted
in bodily harm.
(2) Defendant inflicted substantial bodily harm on George Floyd. It is not necessary for the State to prove that the Defendant intended to inflict
substantial bodily harm, or knew that his actions would inflict substantial bodily harm, only that the Defendanf intended to commit the assault and that George Floyd sustained substantial bodily harm as result of the assault.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #104 on: April 20, 2021, 10:03:51 PM »
Poll after verdict was 9/8 no. Look at the poll now.  :)
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2021, 10:05:08 PM »
Does the definition given of "culpable negligence" not fit what happened?

Only if that "culpable negligence" caused the death.

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2021, 10:06:17 PM »
Great link.

So which element is the issue for those feel he is not guilty?

I believe the issue is with the Second Element:

Quote
Second Element: The Defendant caused the death of George Floyd.

Per the instructions, the drugs possibly causing his death may be considered a "superseding cause."

Quote
“To cause death,” “causing the death” or “caused the death” means that the Defendant’s act or acts were substantial causal factor in causing the death of George Floyd. The Defendant is criminally liable for all the consequences of his actions that occur in the ordinary and natural course of events, including those consequences brought about by one or more intervening causes, if such intervening causes were the natural result ofthe Defendant's acts. The fact that other causes contribute to the death does not relieve the Defendant of criminal liability. However, the Defendant is not criminally liable if “superseding cause” caused the death. “superseding cause” is cause that comes after the Defendant's acts, alters the natural sequence of events, and is the sole cause of result that would not otherwise have occurred.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2021, 10:07:41 PM »
Only if that "culpable negligence" caused the death.

Would the drugs in his system have caused his death had he not been pinned down in that aggressive manner?
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2021, 10:10:13 PM »
Per the instructions, the drugs possibly causing his death may be considered a "superseding cause."
There was no evidence the drugs caused his death.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2021, 10:12:25 PM »
There was no evidence the drugs caused his death.

Was the testimony given enough to give reasonable doubt that that did?
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2021, 10:14:28 PM »
There was no evidence the drugs caused his death.

False. The medical examiner said that if he had been found dead in his home, he would have ruled it an overdose based on an examination of the body.

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2021, 10:17:56 PM »
False. The medical examiner said that if he had been found dead in his home, he would have ruled it an overdose based on an examination of the body.
That is a nothing burger.  :)
What did he rule the cause of death as?
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #112 on: April 20, 2021, 10:19:40 PM »
Was the testimony given enough to give reasonable doubt that that did?
When the medical examiner ruled it wasn't the cause of death?
Did the defense have someone claim it was a drug overdose?
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #113 on: April 20, 2021, 10:22:49 PM »
When the medical examiner ruled it wasn't the cause of death?
Did the defense have someone claim it was a drug overdose?

Did the ME rule that the reaction to the drugs wasn't a superseding action?
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #114 on: April 20, 2021, 10:28:40 PM »
Did the ME rule that the reaction to the drugs wasn't a superseding action?
Not sure. IIRC heart and drugs played a part but the primary cause was knee to the neck.
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Offline Yitz

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2021, 10:30:22 PM »
Poll after verdict was 9/8 no. Look at the poll now.  :)
I guess people like being on the winners side even if wrong

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2021, 10:32:21 PM »
Not sure. IIRC heart and drugs played a part but the primary cause was knee to the neck.

Then it's possible some could say that there may have superseding action, creating reasonable doubt that he was guilty of Murder 2?
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Offline S209

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2021, 10:35:46 PM »
Guilty as sin of what?
Of causing George Floyd’s death.

Open mind...
Exactly my point. This case is open and shut. Period. Only by actively looking to pretend the case isn’t convincingly obvious because of preexisting biases can one fool themselves into believing there is anything to even see here.

I don’t mean giving equal weight to all possibilities no matter how implausible. Having an open mind means being able to see past biases as to what is clear and what is merely obfuscation.

We all saw the video. What do you think? Innocent of all charges?
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #118 on: April 20, 2021, 10:37:48 PM »
Of causing George Floyd’s death.
Exactly my point. This case is open and shut. Period. Only by actively looking to pretend the case isn’t convincingly obvious because of preexisting biases can one fool themselves into believing there is anything to even see here.

I don’t mean giving equal weight to all possibilities no matter how implausible. Having an open mind means being able to see past biases as to what is clear and what is merely obfuscation.

Making a decision based on a fraction of the relevant evidence is not an open mind.

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #119 on: April 20, 2021, 10:37:55 PM »
Poll after verdict was 9/8 no. Look at the poll now.  :)
I saw this poll after the verdict but I always thought he was guilty. I assumed the poll was asking us to judge, not a prediction of what the actual jury would rule.
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