Poll

Guilty?

No
17 (47.2%)
Yes
19 (52.8%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Guilty?  (Read 8598 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #160 on: April 21, 2021, 12:16:19 AM »
The defense doesn't need to prove anything. They need to show that there are reasonable explanations other than the one presented by the prosecutor. The jury ultimately decided the other explanations aren't reasonable. You agree with them. The issue I'm taking is in your determination that "no reasonable person would come down on defense side." I see people who I consider to be reasonable saying that they find the defense's explanations plausible. I'm not sure why you feel that their opinion makes them unreasonable or Kool-Aid drinkers or so ridiculous.
You are confusing it might be this or that with reasonable explanations. One side has the ME and an expert witness saying it was the knee. You need to counter that or you lost. This has nothing to do with Kool-aid.

Do you remember the OJ trial. They had experts to counter every point the prosecution made. It was then up to the jury to decide who to believe and if it was enough for reasonable doubt.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #162 on: April 21, 2021, 12:27:02 AM »
I believe that it is possible that the justified restraint caused the death, and the unjustified restraint was not a contributing factor. I'm not sure what the law would be if that is the case.
Can we at least agree that during the (so called) justified restraint he was still talking and breathing and it was only during the unjustified restraint when he slowly started to decease?

Offline Lurker

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #163 on: April 21, 2021, 12:29:37 AM »
You are confusing it might be this or that with reasonable explanations. One side has the ME and an expert witness saying it was the knee. You need to counter that or you lost. This has nothing to do with Kool-aid.

No, I'm not confusing anything. Arguments are made by the defense that 'it might be this or that," and it is for a jury to decide if it's reasonable. In this case, they decided it wasn't. There are people who say it was. The law is that the jury's opinion is what determines guilt. That doesn't invalidate the opinions that disagree.

Do you remember the OJ trial. They had experts to counter every point the prosecution made. It was then up to the jury to decide who to believe and if it was enough for reasonable doubt.

Great example. OJ was found to be innocent. There are many people who have the opinion that he wasn't and that the jury was mistaken. Their opinion doesn't change the verdict, and the verdict doesn't automatically invalidate their opinion.
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Offline Toasted

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #164 on: April 21, 2021, 12:35:13 AM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ohio-police-fatally-shoot-teen-girl-just-before-chauvin-verdict-this-stuff-just-never-ends/ar-BB1fS9IY?ocid=msedgntp
You'd wish that the idiots at WaPo would wind down the rhetoric and allow this country to heal but they obviously relish this hate. Do you wonder why they provide zero details despite it being publicized all over? Perhaps it doesn't fit their hate agenda.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #165 on: April 21, 2021, 12:39:53 AM »
No, I'm not confusing anything. Arguments are made by the defense that 'it might be this or that," and it is for a jury to decide if it's reasonable. In this case, they decided it wasn't. There are people who say it was. The law is that the jury's opinion is what determines guilt. That doesn't invalidate the opinions that disagree.

Great example. OJ was found to be innocent. There are many people who have the opinion that he wasn't and that the jury was mistaken. Their opinion doesn't change the verdict, and the verdict doesn't automatically invalidate their opinion.
First case you have all the hard evidence on one side and you are arguing it is reasonable to say this or that is a valid argument against the hard evidence. In this situation a jury will always come down on the hard evidence. Using your logic no one should ever be convicted.  ::)
Second case you have hard evidence on both sides so a reasonable argument can be made for either.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #166 on: April 21, 2021, 12:42:08 AM »
You'd wish that the idiots at WaPo would wind down the rhetoric and allow this country to heal but they obviously relish this hate. Do you wonder why they provide zero details despite it being publicized all over? Perhaps it doesn't fit their hate agenda.
They is fine and dandy but what is going on with our police force? In Chicago a 13 year old with a gun gets killed for obeying the officers instructions. Something is not right.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #167 on: April 21, 2021, 12:45:44 AM »
First case you have all the hard evidence on one side and you are arguing it is reasonable to say this or that is a valid argument against the hard evidence. In this situation a jury will always come down on the hard evidence. Using your logic no one should ever be convicted.  ::)
Second case you have hard evidence on both sides so a reasonable argument can be made for either.

You, and the ME, agree that the drugs and heart issues were contributing factors. Why is it unreasonable to say that they were big enough factors to knock the charges down from murder to manslaughter, or from murder 2 to murder 3? The ME doesn't determine that. He just determines the cause of death, not which charges apply.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #168 on: April 21, 2021, 12:47:51 AM »
In Chicago a 13 year old with a gun... Something is not right.

Agreed.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #169 on: April 21, 2021, 12:52:32 AM »
You, and the ME, agree that the drugs and heart issues were contributing factors. Why is it unreasonable to say that they were big enough factors to knock the charges down from murder to manslaughter, or from murder 2 to murder 3? The ME doesn't determine that. He just determines the cause of death, not which charges apply.
Cause of death was knee. Prosecution failed to raise reasonable doubt. Drugs and heart is smoke screen if you believe the primary cause of death was the knee as ME an expert witness testified. Unlike the OJ trial they had no experts to dispute that.
Now for murder 2 they have to prove a felony. That is where I will agree you can come down on either side.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #170 on: April 21, 2021, 01:04:32 AM »
They is fine and dandy but what is going on with our police force? In Chicago a 13 year old with a gun gets killed for obeying the officers instructions. Something is not right.
Deflection at it's best. There is no national police force and conflating cases to try and paint some pattern is idiotic.

I'm very happy that Chauvin is getting locked up and so should every person in uniform who tortures or kills to prove their toughness. I do think that events where weapons were at play deserve different consideration. If you confront someone with a weapon, all bets are off.

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #171 on: April 21, 2021, 02:12:12 AM »

This can be spun a couple ways. My initial spin is to say he was singled out because of the attention/politics. But after further thinking the better spin is that 7 murder convictions on 15k killings seems way, way too low.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #172 on: April 21, 2021, 05:35:38 AM »
If SCOTUS ends up overturning it, it will likely pave the road for term limits or packing.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:55:25 AM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #173 on: April 21, 2021, 05:37:15 AM »
This can be spun a couple ways. My initial spin is to say he was singled out because of the attention/politics. But after further thinking the better spin is that 7 murder convictions on 15k killings seems way, way too low.
Yes and from 2005 to 2015 the number is zero. That just cant be right. We need universal body cams and a federal police oversight agency, as Iíve been saying for months.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #174 on: April 21, 2021, 06:09:31 AM »
Interesting to note, in the Torah a unanimous guilty verdict is insufficient for execution, but a simple majority of the tribunal is considered superior, whereas the British jury system is the diametric opposite (׳סברות הפוכות׳).

That being said, the Ran does say the Torah intended for the primary interpersonal justice system to be monarchical with different principles and the Beis Din executions are a different form of justice for sins against hashem.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #175 on: April 21, 2021, 07:17:07 AM »
Deflection at it's best. There is no national police force and conflating cases to try and paint some pattern is idiotic.
I didn't deflect. I actually agreed with you and raised another issue.
These police shootings are happening across our country. That is not conflating cases. Ignoring what is going on is idiotic and dangerous.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline CountValentine

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Offline YitzyS

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #177 on: April 21, 2021, 07:40:43 AM »
While I always greatly respect the perspective of @S209, I don't agree that this case was an open and shut case of murder. Yes, the video may be grotesque, it still left (at least) two major questions that needed to be proven in court:

1- Was Chauvin following police protocol, in which case he should be absolved of guilt even if he did kill Floyd?
2- Were Chauvin's actions the cause of death or was it the drugs? If it was a mixture of both, was Chauvin responsible to know that Floyd may have ingested drugs and that his actions now were causing death?

If the video proves anything outright, it would be manslaughter, not murder.
Monkeys don't fly unless you put them on airplanes

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #178 on: April 21, 2021, 07:54:07 AM »
1- Was Chauvin following police protocol, in which case he should be absolved of guilt even if he did kill Floyd?
You are ok with following protocol even if it kills a person? How about following orders to massacre a whole town of women and children? 
At what point do we hold the person responsible for doing something they know is wrong?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #179 on: April 21, 2021, 08:01:12 AM »
You are ok with following protocol even if it kills a person? How about following orders to massacre a whole town of women and children? 
At what point do we hold the person responsible for doing something they know is wrong?

Canít conflate the 2, mass murder requires intention to murder, I donít see anyone arguing that Chauvin intended to murder him.