Poll

Guilty?

No
17 (47.2%)
Yes
19 (52.8%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Guilty?  (Read 8600 times)

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10165
  • Total likes: 3299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2021, 08:04:29 AM »
Canít conflate the 2, mass murder requires intention to murder, I donít see anyone arguing that Chauvin intended to murder him.
Stop trying to twist things. I am not conflating the two. I am trying to understand his thinking.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 7456
  • Total likes: 1828
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2021, 08:09:48 AM »
Stop trying to twist things. I am not conflating the two. I am trying to understand his thinking.

Itís very simple - your first 2 questions hold zero relevance. The only meaningful question is at what point we hold someone responsible for doing something they know is wrong - the answer is immediately. Then all you need is Chauvin to admit he knew he was doing the wrong thing.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10165
  • Total likes: 3299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #182 on: April 21, 2021, 08:15:56 AM »
Itís very simple - your first 2 questions hold zero relevance. The only meaningful question is at what point we hold someone responsible for doing something they know is wrong - the answer is immediately. Then all you need is Chauvin to admit he knew he was doing the wrong thing.
This world does not revolve around what you think is relevant. I call you out for again for twisting my point and you come up with this BS.  ::)
I am trying to find out what he feels is acceptable which seems to be beyond your tunnel vision.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 7456
  • Total likes: 1828
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2021, 08:18:13 AM »
This world does not revolve around what you think is relevant. I call you out for again for twisting my point and you come up with this BS.  ::)
I am trying to find out what he feels is acceptable which seems to be beyond your tunnel vision.

So your question if he condones mass murder was not a rhetorical question? Wow I must say that one flew over my head.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10165
  • Total likes: 3299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #184 on: April 21, 2021, 08:23:06 AM »
So your question if he condones mass murder was not a rhetorical question? Wow I must say that one flew over my head.
I never said murder. Murder is an unlawful premeditated act. Just keep twisting what I said.  ::)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4661
  • Total likes: 5104
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #185 on: April 21, 2021, 08:32:20 AM »
I never said murder. Murder is an unlawful premeditated act. Just keep twisting what I said.  ::)

You said "massacre." I don't know that the word allows for a definition that precludes murder.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2972
  • Total likes: 6894
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2021, 08:34:49 AM »
You said "massacre." I don't know that the word allows for a definition that precludes murder.

Seems you're our if practice arguing with CV.  If the law is to kill.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4661
  • Total likes: 5104
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #187 on: April 21, 2021, 08:43:02 AM »
Seems you're our if practice arguing with CV.  If the law is to kill.

He didn't say the law is to kill. He said someone was following orders to massacre a town of women and children. If the law is to massacre, then society has bigger problems than an individual following orders.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10165
  • Total likes: 3299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #188 on: April 21, 2021, 08:45:16 AM »
You said "massacre." I don't know that the word allows for a definition that precludes murder.
Mỹ Lai massacre is an example. The argument was he was carrying out orders so it was not murder. This was a heated issue at the time.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 7456
  • Total likes: 1828
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #189 on: April 21, 2021, 08:54:40 AM »
You said "massacre." I don't know that the word allows for a definition that precludes murder.

mas∑​sa∑​cre | \ ˈma-si-kər  \
Definition of massacre (Entry 1 of 2)
1 : the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty

Using this definition, hard to imagine a legalized massacre. Even if the US decided to legalize it, international law would kick in.

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 3528
  • Total likes: 6867
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 21
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #190 on: April 21, 2021, 09:02:33 AM »
You are ok with following protocol even if it kills a person? How about following orders to massacre a whole town of women and children? 
At what point do we hold the person responsible for doing something they know is wrong?
So you are saying that any cop who shoots someone, in every situation, should be convicted of murder?
Monkeys don't fly unless you put them on airplanes

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10165
  • Total likes: 3299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #191 on: April 21, 2021, 09:07:14 AM »
So you are saying that any cop who shoots someone, in every situation, should be convicted of murder?
No. The recent one in Chicago involving a 13 year old boy is a prime example. He should not even be charged and I don't think he will be.
Something is wrong when you comply and get shot.

Any chance you answer my questions?  :)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline yerushabubby

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Feb 2021
  • Posts: 61
  • Total likes: 50
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #192 on: April 21, 2021, 09:10:09 AM »
While I always greatly respect the perspective of @S209, I don't agree that this case was an open and shut case of murder. Yes, the video may be grotesque, it still left (at least) two major questions that needed to be proven in court:

1- Was Chauvin following police protocol, in which case he should be absolved of guilt even if he did kill Floyd?
2- Were Chauvin's actions the cause of death or was it the drugs? If it was a mixture of both, was Chauvin responsible to know that Floyd may have ingested drugs and that his actions now were causing death?

If the video proves anything outright, it would be manslaughter, not murder.


1 - If Chauvin's actions were consistent with police protocol, it still would not absolve him of responsibility.  The main difference would be in whether others share the responsibility with him.

2 - Even without knowing why Floyd's breathing was impaired, the simple fact that he was having difficulty breathing should have caused any reasonable police officer to reduce the pressure he was applying to Floyd in order to ensure his safety.

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 3528
  • Total likes: 6867
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 21
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #193 on: April 21, 2021, 09:15:45 AM »
2 - Even without knowing why Floyd's breathing was impaired, the simple fact that he was having difficulty breathing should have caused any reasonable police officer to reduce the pressure he was applying to Floyd in order to ensure his safety.
Floyd was saying "I cant breath" long before the officer had his knee on his back. Under cross examination, the police force professional admitted that there were many times he also did not believe there was a medical issue even when the suspect insisted there was.
Monkeys don't fly unless you put them on airplanes

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 3528
  • Total likes: 6867
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 21
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #194 on: April 21, 2021, 09:17:42 AM »
No. The recent one in Chicago involving a 13 year old boy is a prime example. He should not even be charged and I don't think he will be.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why shouldn't the officer be charged? If the boy complied, why did he shoot?
Monkeys don't fly unless you put them on airplanes

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10165
  • Total likes: 3299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #195 on: April 21, 2021, 09:22:07 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why shouldn't the officer be charged? If the boy complied, why did he shoot?
You going to keep asking questions without answering mine? I am used to being treated unfairly on this forum so I will show you the curtesy you and many others will not show me.

It was a split second decision and I am going to guess he didn't see the child drop/toss the gun.

You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13049
  • Total likes: 7699
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #196 on: April 21, 2021, 09:23:10 AM »
If SCOTUS ends up overturning it, it will likely pave the road for term limits or packing.
Can you think of any argument at all to bring this to the federal courts at this point?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 3528
  • Total likes: 6867
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 21
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #197 on: April 21, 2021, 09:28:34 AM »
You going to keep asking questions without answering mine? I am used to being treated unfairly on this forum so I will show you the curtesy you and many others will not show me.

It was a split second decision and I am going to guess he didn't see the child drop/toss the gun.
Your question was
You are ok with following protocol even if it kills a person? How about following orders to massacre a whole town of women and children? 
At what point do we hold the person responsible for doing something they know is wrong?

You were going to one extreme to show that one can be guilty even if he was following orders. My response was
So you are saying that any cop who shoots someone, in every situation, should be convicted of murder?

To clarify, I don't know exactly where the line is. But my answer was that there are cases where it would there would be justification to kill someone, so you citing mass murder is NOT a good question, because not all cases are comparable to mass murder.
Monkeys don't fly unless you put them on airplanes

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10165
  • Total likes: 3299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #198 on: April 21, 2021, 09:34:06 AM »
To clarify, I don't know exactly where the line is. But my answer was that there are cases where it would there would be justification to kill someone, so you citing mass murder is NOT a good question, because not all cases are comparable to mass murder.
Ok fair enough. What are your thoughts on this specific example?
Mỹ Lai massacre is an example. The argument was he was carrying out orders so it was not murder. This was a heated issue at the time.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online Afrages6

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2017
  • Posts: 846
  • Total likes: 334
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Guilty?
« Reply #199 on: April 21, 2021, 09:43:12 AM »
If SCOTUS ends up overturning it, it will likely pave the road for term limits or packing.
You know thatís not even possible right?