Poll

Guilty?

No
17 (47.2%)
Yes
19 (52.8%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Guilty?  (Read 26865 times)

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2021, 08:32:34 PM »
If the jury was all White, there would be people here asking the same question, and you'd be rolling your eyes hard at them.
So we agree the color of the jury matters? Does this mean a black defendant can't get a fair trial with a white jury?
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2021, 08:36:35 PM »
So we agree the color of the jury matters? Does this mean a black defendant can't get a fair trial with a white jury?

It matters in terms of public perception. Whether someone can get a fair trial is very much dependent on the individual members of that jury, regardless of their race.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2021, 08:43:27 PM »
It matters in terms of public perception. Whether someone can get a fair trial is very much dependent on the individual members of that jury, regardless of their race.
So we agree the color of jury has no effect on the outcome?
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Offline whYME

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2021, 08:44:06 PM »
So we agree the color of the jury matters? Does this mean a black defendant can't get a fair trial with a white jury?
Right, because this trial can totally be compared to and is indicative of the typical criminal trial in the US  ::)

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2021, 08:46:50 PM »
So we agree the color of jury has no effect on the outcome?

No. If the race of the individual members of the jury influences any of their decisions, then it does impact the outcome. I don't know why things need to be absolute.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2021, 08:51:28 PM »
No. If the race of the individual members of the jury influences any of their decisions, then it does impact the outcome. I don't know why things need to be absolute.
Not absolute. Many members want it both ways as you seem to be doing. They will claim this jury wasn't fair because the decision didn't go their way. If he was not guilty then the same jury suddenly becomes fair.

You don't get to flip flop on if you believe the color of the jury matters.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2021, 09:02:16 PM »
I did not follow all of the trial, and the information I did get was mostly from pro-defense sources. So while it seems to me that the right ruling would be not guilty, I cannot say with certainty that is the case.

Anyone who is willing to approach this with an open mind should be able to acknowledge that he is guilty as sin. That is the cold hard truth, no matter your political affiliation or opinion on subsequent protests/riots/politics. This is one of those rare open and shut cases that can be decided based purely on one piece evidence.

We all nearly vomited from watching the video, and should be happy that the justice system did the right thing here. The fact that such a large segment of the population is willing to defend this murder and murderer simply because they’re fed up with a wholly disparate political organization and movement is troubling.

I barely followed the trial. I didn’t need to.

Having said that, I think it is extremely unlikely that they come back with an acquittal on all charges. The would have to have been living under a rock this past year to not know the rioting that would follow. They also are almost certainly worried that their names will be leaked if they come back with a not guilty verdict and they know how the mob will react.

The scary part is that everyone understands that they will be taking the above into account, instead of focusing exclusively on the evidence presented in court. Basically we are living in a system of mob "justice."
This was somewhat predicted a long time ago
Unfortunately I doubt anybody there will dare exonerate him. (Not saying he should be, but he does deserve a fair trial).
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2021, 09:02:28 PM »
Not absolute. Many members want it both ways as you seem to be doing. They will claim this jury wasn't fair because the decision didn't go their way. If he was not guilty then the same jury suddenly becomes fair.

You don't get to flip flop on if you believe the color of the jury matters.

People say this jury wasn't fair because their decision was based on their race? They were of mixed race and came to a unanimous decision.

People don't like the outcome. They think this jury may have been influenced by outside factors. They also say that it wasn't moved to another county because those juries may have been all White (or more White), which would have possibly caused perception issues with regards to whether their race could cause bias against the victim. Those are separate arguments.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2021, 09:06:18 PM »
Anyone who is willing to approach this with an open mind should be able to acknowledge that he is guilty as sin.

I could be very wrong here, but I think people have more of an issue with what he was convicted of, rather than him being "guilty as sin." The argument has been made that he may have been overcharged with the Murder 2 charge, and they question whether the evidence supported a conviction on that charge. I don't think anyone (here, at least) truly believes he was innocent.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2021, 09:09:23 PM »
I could be very wrong here, but I think people have more of an issue with what he was convicted of, rather than him being "guilty as sin." The argument has been made that he may have been overcharged with the Murder 2 charge, and they question whether the evidence supported a conviction on that charge. I don't think anyone (here, at least) truly believes he was innocent.
I’m not sure you’re right.
it seems to me that the right ruling would be not guilty
It appears OP was referring to all charges, per the subsequent paragraph. I may be wrong.

There are definitely many people who I’ve spoken with in person who buy in to “Who says he killed him, it was a drug death” etc.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2021, 09:15:25 PM »
There are definitely many people who I’ve spoken with in person who buy in to “Who says he killed him, it was a drug death” etc.

Why would that get him off of the manslaughter charge, or even the Murder 3?
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2021, 09:16:51 PM »
Why would that get him off of the manslaughter charge?
The drugs killed him not the knee on his shoulder.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2021, 09:24:58 PM »
The drugs killed him not the knee on his shoulder.

Quote
609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another

Pinning him down while he was dying would probably qualify, even if he didn't actually kill him. I'm not well versed in these things, but that's how I understand it.


ETA: This is the definition of Murder 3 in MN:
Quote
609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 09:30:21 PM by Lurker »
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2021, 09:31:04 PM »
So we agree the color of jury has no effect on the outcome?

We do. Left wing activists who opposed moving it to a different county don't agree.

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2021, 09:34:51 PM »
Pinning him down while he was dying would probably qualify, even if he didn't actually kill him.

Nope. He has to "cause" the death.

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2021, 09:38:37 PM »
Anyone who is willing to approach this with an open mind should be able to acknowledge that he is guilty as sin.

Guilty as sin of what?

Approach this with an open mind
...
I barely followed the trial. I didn’t need to.

Open mind...

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2021, 09:39:31 PM »
Nope. He has to "cause" the death.

The way I read the Murder 3 statute, pinning someone down when they can't breathe because of a drug overdose, without regard for human life, seems to qualify. Again, I'm not an expert or even someone with any kind of familiarity with the law. That's just how I read it.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #97 on: April 20, 2021, 09:48:27 PM »
We do. Left wing activists who opposed moving it to a different county don't agree.
Who cares about those nuts?
What about the right wing nut jobs who wanted it move to get an all white jury?
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2021, 09:49:22 PM »
Guilty as sin of what?
Of causing his death.
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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2021, 09:49:31 PM »
The way I read the Murder 3 statute, pinning someone down when they can't breathe because of a drug overdose, without regard for human life, seems to qualify. Again, I'm not an expert or even someone with any kind of familiarity with the law. That's just how I read it.

Jury instructions are here - https://www.mncourts.gov/media/StateofMinnesotavDerekChauvin

If pinning him down didn't cause the death, that's not manslaughter.