Poll

Guilty?

No
17 (47.2%)
Yes
19 (52.8%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Guilty?  (Read 26857 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2021, 08:04:29 AM »
Can’t conflate the 2, mass murder requires intention to murder, I don’t see anyone arguing that Chauvin intended to murder him.
Stop trying to twist things. I am not conflating the two. I am trying to understand his thinking.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2021, 08:09:48 AM »
Stop trying to twist things. I am not conflating the two. I am trying to understand his thinking.

It’s very simple - your first 2 questions hold zero relevance. The only meaningful question is at what point we hold someone responsible for doing something they know is wrong - the answer is immediately. Then all you need is Chauvin to admit he knew he was doing the wrong thing.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #182 on: April 21, 2021, 08:15:56 AM »
It’s very simple - your first 2 questions hold zero relevance. The only meaningful question is at what point we hold someone responsible for doing something they know is wrong - the answer is immediately. Then all you need is Chauvin to admit he knew he was doing the wrong thing.
This world does not revolve around what you think is relevant. I call you out for again for twisting my point and you come up with this BS.  ::)
I am trying to find out what he feels is acceptable which seems to be beyond your tunnel vision.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2021, 08:18:13 AM »
This world does not revolve around what you think is relevant. I call you out for again for twisting my point and you come up with this BS.  ::)
I am trying to find out what he feels is acceptable which seems to be beyond your tunnel vision.

So your question if he condones mass murder was not a rhetorical question? Wow I must say that one flew over my head.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #184 on: April 21, 2021, 08:23:06 AM »
So your question if he condones mass murder was not a rhetorical question? Wow I must say that one flew over my head.
I never said murder. Murder is an unlawful premeditated act. Just keep twisting what I said.  ::)
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #185 on: April 21, 2021, 08:32:20 AM »
I never said murder. Murder is an unlawful premeditated act. Just keep twisting what I said.  ::)

You said "massacre." I don't know that the word allows for a definition that precludes murder.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2021, 08:34:49 AM »
You said "massacre." I don't know that the word allows for a definition that precludes murder.

Seems you're our if practice arguing with CV.  If the law is to kill.

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #187 on: April 21, 2021, 08:43:02 AM »
Seems you're our if practice arguing with CV.  If the law is to kill.

He didn't say the law is to kill. He said someone was following orders to massacre a town of women and children. If the law is to massacre, then society has bigger problems than an individual following orders.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #188 on: April 21, 2021, 08:45:16 AM »
You said "massacre." I don't know that the word allows for a definition that precludes murder.
Mỹ Lai massacre is an example. The argument was he was carrying out orders so it was not murder. This was a heated issue at the time.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #189 on: April 21, 2021, 08:54:40 AM »
You said "massacre." I don't know that the word allows for a definition that precludes murder.

mas·​sa·​cre | \ ˈma-si-kər  \
Definition of massacre (Entry 1 of 2)
1 : the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty

Using this definition, hard to imagine a legalized massacre. Even if the US decided to legalize it, international law would kick in.
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Offline YitzyS

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #190 on: April 21, 2021, 09:02:33 AM »
You are ok with following protocol even if it kills a person? How about following orders to massacre a whole town of women and children? 
At what point do we hold the person responsible for doing something they know is wrong?
So you are saying that any cop who shoots someone, in every situation, should be convicted of murder?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #191 on: April 21, 2021, 09:07:14 AM »
So you are saying that any cop who shoots someone, in every situation, should be convicted of murder?
No. The recent one in Chicago involving a 13 year old boy is a prime example. He should not even be charged and I don't think he will be.
Something is wrong when you comply and get shot.

Any chance you answer my questions?  :)
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Offline yerushabubby

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #192 on: April 21, 2021, 09:10:09 AM »
While I always greatly respect the perspective of @S209, I don't agree that this case was an open and shut case of murder. Yes, the video may be grotesque, it still left (at least) two major questions that needed to be proven in court:

1- Was Chauvin following police protocol, in which case he should be absolved of guilt even if he did kill Floyd?
2- Were Chauvin's actions the cause of death or was it the drugs? If it was a mixture of both, was Chauvin responsible to know that Floyd may have ingested drugs and that his actions now were causing death?

If the video proves anything outright, it would be manslaughter, not murder.


1 - If Chauvin's actions were consistent with police protocol, it still would not absolve him of responsibility.  The main difference would be in whether others share the responsibility with him.

2 - Even without knowing why Floyd's breathing was impaired, the simple fact that he was having difficulty breathing should have caused any reasonable police officer to reduce the pressure he was applying to Floyd in order to ensure his safety.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #193 on: April 21, 2021, 09:15:45 AM »
2 - Even without knowing why Floyd's breathing was impaired, the simple fact that he was having difficulty breathing should have caused any reasonable police officer to reduce the pressure he was applying to Floyd in order to ensure his safety.
Floyd was saying "I cant breath" long before the officer had his knee on his back. Under cross examination, the police force professional admitted that there were many times he also did not believe there was a medical issue even when the suspect insisted there was.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #194 on: April 21, 2021, 09:17:42 AM »
No. The recent one in Chicago involving a 13 year old boy is a prime example. He should not even be charged and I don't think he will be.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why shouldn't the officer be charged? If the boy complied, why did he shoot?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #195 on: April 21, 2021, 09:22:07 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why shouldn't the officer be charged? If the boy complied, why did he shoot?
You going to keep asking questions without answering mine? I am used to being treated unfairly on this forum so I will show you the curtesy you and many others will not show me.

It was a split second decision and I am going to guess he didn't see the child drop/toss the gun.

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Offline aygart

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #196 on: April 21, 2021, 09:23:10 AM »
If SCOTUS ends up overturning it, it will likely pave the road for term limits or packing.
Can you think of any argument at all to bring this to the federal courts at this point?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #197 on: April 21, 2021, 09:28:34 AM »
You going to keep asking questions without answering mine? I am used to being treated unfairly on this forum so I will show you the curtesy you and many others will not show me.

It was a split second decision and I am going to guess he didn't see the child drop/toss the gun.
Your question was
You are ok with following protocol even if it kills a person? How about following orders to massacre a whole town of women and children? 
At what point do we hold the person responsible for doing something they know is wrong?

You were going to one extreme to show that one can be guilty even if he was following orders. My response was
So you are saying that any cop who shoots someone, in every situation, should be convicted of murder?

To clarify, I don't know exactly where the line is. But my answer was that there are cases where it would there would be justification to kill someone, so you citing mass murder is NOT a good question, because not all cases are comparable to mass murder.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #198 on: April 21, 2021, 09:34:06 AM »
To clarify, I don't know exactly where the line is. But my answer was that there are cases where it would there would be justification to kill someone, so you citing mass murder is NOT a good question, because not all cases are comparable to mass murder.
Ok fair enough. What are your thoughts on this specific example?
Mỹ Lai massacre is an example. The argument was he was carrying out orders so it was not murder. This was a heated issue at the time.
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Offline Afrages6

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Re: Guilty?
« Reply #199 on: April 21, 2021, 09:43:12 AM »
If SCOTUS ends up overturning it, it will likely pave the road for term limits or packing.
You know that’s not even possible right?