Author Topic: LIFE INSURANCE  (Read 119617 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #900 on: November 27, 2023, 06:58:39 PM »
I've been offered an interesting Term 30 product by National Life, the premiums where almost identical to other similar offerings by know brands such as Guardian, MassMutual, NYL etc. However this product offers free included riders for Terminal Illness and Critical Illness whereas one would get a lump sum payment if they meet criteria (amounts vary depending on the severity of the illness)



Plenty of companies offer a free Terminal Illness Acceleration rider. The language, trigger, terms, and maximum benefit could vary.
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Offline Alexsei

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #901 on: November 27, 2023, 07:19:35 PM »
Plenty of companies offer a free Terminal Illness Acceleration rider. The language, trigger, terms, and maximum benefit could vary.
I think the critical illness part is the interesting one.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #902 on: November 27, 2023, 07:30:00 PM »
I think the critical illness part is the interesting one.

Didn't see the actual rider, but would it mean that if one chooses the Critical Illness benefit, that would be instead of the Life Insurance benefit? Can it be exercised partially? I'll need to look it up. Seems like Nationwide also has a CI living benefit rider.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Alexsei

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #903 on: November 27, 2023, 07:33:32 PM »
Didn't see the actual rider, but would it mean that if one chooses the Critical Illness benefit, that would be instead of the Life Insurance benefit? Can it be exercised partially? I'll need to look it up. Seems like Nationwide also has a CI living benefit rider.
The maximum CI lump sum in this illustration is 1,000,000, if one is to become eligible for the max amount their death benefit will be reduced by 1,000,000 otherwise it would be reduced whatever amount disbursed through the riders (almost $ for $)
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Offline Mordyk

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #904 on: November 29, 2023, 04:27:29 PM »
Just went through WL policy with my grandmother.

An agent sold for my grandfather at age 64 a 40 year pay, $400k wl policy. premium is almost $15,733 per year. she has many assets and does not need this 400k.
Did similar policy for my grandmother

And this is why whole Life agents have a bad rap.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #905 on: November 29, 2023, 04:48:01 PM »
Just went through WL policy with my grandmother.

An agent sold for my grandfather at age 64 a 40 year pay, $400k wl policy. premium is almost $15,733 per year. she has many assets and does not need this 400k.
Did similar policy for my grandmother

And this is why whole Life agents have a bad rap.

Was this a recent sale?

What was the rationale behind the sale?

Are there any other benefits (such as a Long-Term-Care rider)?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Mordyk

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #906 on: November 29, 2023, 06:07:48 PM »
Was this a recent sale?

What was the rationale behind the sale?

Are there any other benefits (such as a Long-Term-Care rider)?
They are in year 11 of pay

No rationale,   just an agent finding another sucker

No other benefits as they were covered with all of that.

They are wealthy people. Assets and liquid.
#TYH

Offline ExGingi

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #907 on: November 29, 2023, 07:50:04 PM »
They are in year 11 of pay

No rationale,   just an agent finding another sucker

No other benefits as they were covered with all of that.

They are wealthy people. Assets and liquid.

Is the agent still in business?
If yes, you can try to invite him to a meeting (with the owners, as he isn't required to answer to you) and ask.

I don't really want to go there, but it might have been done as a favor to the agent. For wealthy people this is just another asset class to diversify into (do they have any other policies?)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline knowitall

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #908 on: December 03, 2023, 03:53:55 PM »
Just went through WL policy with my grandmother.

An agent sold for my grandfather at age 64 a 40 year pay, $400k wl policy. premium is almost $15,733 per year. she has many assets and does not need this 400k.
Did similar policy for my grandmother

And this is why whole Life agents have a bad rap.
Wow! We really need to put a stop to this rampant overselling of WLI.

Offline knowitall

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #909 on: December 03, 2023, 03:54:55 PM »
Whole life insurance is often pitched as a chasunah or retirement plan. What are your thoughts on using WLI as an investment?
The essence of financial planning is understanding a specific client’s goals and ability to take risks. Some want to retire comfortably or leave a sizable yerushah. Some want to help their kids buy houses; others are just saving to pay for their kids’ weddings. Some are okay with volatility in their investments; others prefer investments that grow slowly but safely. Even for those who are seeking “safer” investments, insurance company products very rarely have a place in a frum family’s portfolio. Let’s break down why that is so.

First of all, it’s crucial to distinguish between term life insurance and other types. Term life insurance is simple, cheap and very flexible. Most families would be best served by a simple term policy for each parent. Similar to your auto insurance, you pay a small premium in exchange for coverage for a defined term, in case of a loss. It’s important to stress that the negative attention life insurance gets is exclusively related to the permanent products, not term life insurance.

Permanent insurance is a whole different story. These products are dramatically oversold in the frum world, particularly in heimish circles. Permanent insurance products come in many different shapes and sizes, but they are very rarely an ideal investment vehicle for a frum family. Whole life insurance is the most common type, and that’s why many (incorrectly) refer to all permanent insurance products as WLI. While they typically combine life insurance with an investment component, there are many issues that come up.

The first is that you are obligating yourself to make ongoing payments for many years, often your whole life. I see many couples buy these policies when they are young and have few expenses. A few years down the line, their expenses have grown and they can no longer afford the policy. As these policies are front-loaded with fees and commissions, if you cancel it in the early years, you typically take a massive loss. Forget about growth, many policies don’t even break even until seven to ten years in. Often there are surrender fees as well. As a matter of fact, the Society of Actuaries has found that about 80 percent of whole life policies are surrendered prior to death. Clearly, many buy these policies without fully understanding them and later regret it.

Take a look at Michael and Rivky, a young couple with one toddler. Their rent is $1,800 monthly, and other expenses are minimal. Between Rivky’s job, some parental help, and Michael’s kollel check, they can put away $3,000 a month. Many couples in their position start WLI policies, with monthly premiums in the thousands, thinking they will always be able to afford them.

Fast-forward five years and a couple more kids. Even though Michael took a job, their budget is much tighter. Their $1,800 rent has turned into a $4,500 mortgage, plus other home ownership costs. The Camry became an Odyssey. There’s tuition, health insurance, taxes, plus a much bigger grocery bill. All too often, they up canceling the policy and losing a significant chunk of what they put in.

Even if someone does retain a WLI product for his whole life, the returns are meager, especially after you factor in inflation. It’s also important for customers to be aware that agents can net huge commissions on WLI, and to make sure their agent’s recommendations are in their best interests. They can make sense in certain niche cases, such as for the extreme wealthy who want to avoid estate taxes. Other examples include providing liquidity in an illiquid estate, or certain business partnerships. But the typical middle-class family is significantly hampering their future by buying these polices. I’ve also seen situations where families had to delay buying a house because their WLI payments were so high.

Take Aryeh and Mindy, a middle-class couple in their thirties. They already have enough coverage via term life insurance. They make a nice living and can easily afford the $2,500 monthly WLI payment Aryeh’s friend wants to sell them. He says, “All the wealthy have WLI. It grows safely and it’s tax efficient. Some of it is guaranteed. You can even borrow against it. It will provide coverage for your entire life. It’s really a no-brainer for someone like you.” Some of this may be true, but is WLI really the best option for them?

Let’s see. There’s no such thing as a free lunch. If the insurance company is providing a benefit, Aryeh and Mindy are paying for it. They already have enough term coverage in case of a premature death. There are likely much better places for them to put their money. Paying down any student loans, auto loans or their mortgage might provide a better return than WLI. Contributing to a 401(k) or IRA may also be a better option. In many cases, a 529 college savings account can be used for tuition and should be considered. Even if none of the above make sense, they still shouldn’t buy the WLI. Insurance companies aren’t better investors than Aryeh and Mindy. They can invest on their own, in a very conservative portfolio, without the additional layer of fees. They’ll have the same peace of mind, and they’ll likely be much better off financially. Additionally, they’ll have much more flexibility in case their goals or risk tolerance changes. It’s very easy to set up an auto transfer into an investment account, and there are organizations that can assist with this.

Additionally, many people feel, “If I can make 5 percent with very little risk, should I be taking stock market risk to earn 10 percent? I’m okay making half.” But 5 percent is not half of 10 percent, it’s not even close. Investing $2,000 a month for 40 years at 5 percent will turn into $2.8 million. But the same $2,000 invested at 10 percent for 40 years will turn into over $10 million.

While insurance companies do offer other products that have potential to earn better returns than WLI, the devil is in the details. I’ve seen many policies that allow the insurance company to change caps, crediting rates, costs, etc., after you’ve purchased the policy. I’d never lock away my money with an “opponent” who can change the rules in the middle of the game.

So yes, there certainly are situations where permanent insurance is appropriate. That being said, especially when dealing with lower to middle-class families, those situations are exceedingly rare.

 

(Originally featured in Mishpacha, Issue 988)

Offline Mordyk

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #910 on: December 03, 2023, 04:13:17 PM »
Is the agent still in business?
If yes, you can try to invite him to a meeting (with the owners, as he isn't required to answer to you) and ask.

I don't really want to go there, but it might have been done as a favor to the agent. For wealthy people this is just another asset class to diversify into (do they have any other policies?)
Not sure about the agent.

And no, this wasn't a favor.
#TYH

Offline zh cohen

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #911 on: December 04, 2023, 06:04:06 PM »
To help explain what you're observing: there are 2 key inputs for insurance pricing.

(A) Mortality risk (higher mortality risk -> higher prices)
(B) Interest rates (higher interest rates -> lower prices [this is particularly true for policies with longer duration])

In your case, the changes to (A) and (B) (relative to when you priced out your policy 10 years ago) are partially offsetting one another.

Thank you for this! Just got a quote for a 20 year $1 million term policy which is cheaper than the $500k 20 year I got 4 years ago.

There is an even cheaper quote (with accelerated underwriting) from a different company, but that company does not allow replacement policies.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #912 on: December 04, 2023, 07:37:01 PM »
Thank you for this! Just got a quote for a 20 year $1 million term policy which is cheaper than the $500k 20 year I got 4 years ago.

There is an even cheaper quote (with accelerated underwriting) from a different company, but that company does not allow replacement policies.

So you paid 20 year rates for something you only kept 4 years...

I recently spoke to someone who bought a 20 year term more than 20 years ago. He is uninsurable (lucky to be alive beyond statistics for his condition) and paying ever increasing renewal premiums (lucky that it can even be renewed). Non convertible.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #913 on: December 04, 2023, 07:57:52 PM »
So you paid 20 year rates for something you only kept 4 years...

No, I paid 20 year rates to ensure that I would be covered for 20 years.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #914 on: December 04, 2023, 08:15:01 PM »
No, I paid 20 year rates to ensure that I would be covered for 20 years.

And you kept for...?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline AsherO

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #915 on: December 04, 2023, 08:27:52 PM »
There is an even cheaper quote (with accelerated underwriting) from a different company, but that company does not allow replacement policies.

Why not buy the $1m cheaper quote as additional insurance? You can always decide to drop the $500k policy once the $1m policy is issued.
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Offline aygart

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #916 on: December 04, 2023, 11:07:12 PM »
And you kept for...?
BH he didn't need to use or keep that insurance.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #917 on: December 04, 2023, 11:31:14 PM »
BH he didn't need to use or keep that insurance.

Yup. When I tell clients why I am not a fan of long-term Term Life Insurance, mentioning the possible outcomes, I start off by saying that the absolute worst outcome is that it paid out.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline aygart

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #918 on: December 04, 2023, 11:38:17 PM »
Yup. When I tell clients why I am not a fan of long-term Term Life Insurance, mentioning the possible outcomes, I start off by saying that the absolute worst outcome is that it paid out.

I am not understanding you thought process here. By buying that term he ensured that he had coverage for that long whereas had he taken a shorter term and cv became uninsurable then he would be left without coverage at the end of the term even though it was even more needed then.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #919 on: December 04, 2023, 11:58:55 PM »
I am not understanding you thought process here. By buying that term he ensured that he had coverage for that long whereas had he taken a shorter term and cv became uninsurable then he would be left without coverage at the end of the term even though it was even more needed then.

Long-term Term Life Insurance as the only coverage can make people avoid revisiting their coverage often enough.

I personally never owned long-term term life insurance, I ended up either converting (most) or dropping whatever term insurance I had over the past 20 years. Term cost increases and expiring conversion privileges prompted review and action.

(and dealing with assets other than life insurance left in the estates of family members, just strengthen my belief that a life insurance death benefit is the best material asset to leave behind).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 12:05:45 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan