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« Last edited by YitzyS on April 29, 2021, 09:29:16 AM »

Author Topic: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World  (Read 40954 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2021, 07:57:58 AM »
This varies hugely and depends on endless variables. Some examples that move the needle by thousands/year:
1. Shabbos and YomTov meals, if you typically/always eat out at friends/family, that’s savings of thousands a year, if you typically host that’s an added expense that can add up to thousands a year
2. First child increases your household expenses by 20-40%, depending on childcare. Each additional child could be another 20%
3. Whether your children go to day camp or overnight camp

Say what?

http://people.brandeis.edu/~rafrazer/wbeitza/3_shabbat_expenses_mekorot.htm
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2021, 08:49:03 AM »
Anonymous #2

4 children, Lakewood

Basic monthly expenses:
Childcare - $1,500
Housing and utilities - $2,400
Cars (insurance and gas) - $350
Groceries - $1,000
Target/Amazon - $300
Phones and internet - $150
Cleaning help - $200
Total - $5,900 monthly expenses

This does not include non-steady but inevitable expenses like clothing, travel, technology, takeout, gifts, and many other things.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline TzviR

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2021, 08:57:49 AM »
This has long been a crazy problem. There should be at least a 30k or 40k range in which each benefit phases out.

For example, if the Medicaid cutoff line is $55k for a family of 4, and Medicaid supplies insurance worth $20k, then the phase out range would be from earning $40k to $80k, in which you lose one dollar of coverage for every two dollars you earn.

Obviously, the exact details would have to be tweaked, but we need to disincentives not earning, and we have to make sure it is always worth it to go to work.
+1
I know somebody who was offered a better position at work but didn’t take it because he would loose more money by taking it, by not getting any of the government handouts.

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Offline Euclid

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2021, 08:58:52 AM »
This does not include non-steady but inevitable expenses like clothing, travel, technology, takeout, gifts, and many other things.
Then this estimation is worthless. These missing items can total tens of thousands.

(This is why people end up in debt, because they consider these expenses to be one off anomalies, instead of treating them as regular expenses and budgeting for them appropriately. /rant)

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2021, 09:07:10 AM »
Anonymous #2

4 children, Lakewood

Basic monthly expenses:
Childcare - $1,500
Housing and utilities - $2,400
Cars (insurance and gas) - $350
Groceries - $1,000
Target/Amazon - $300
Phones and internet - $150
Cleaning help - $200
Total - $5,900 monthly expenses

This does not include non-steady but inevitable expenses like clothing, travel, technology, takeout, gifts, and many other things.
Health insurance?

Offline yzj

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2021, 09:07:34 AM »
Makes sense. If your household income is $30k and you get the whole gamut, that’s probably equivalent to $70k compensation. What kills people is that $50k makes you ineligible for most of it, and there’s usually no sliding scale, you’re in or your out.
That’s a pretty low estimate. Medicaid, (Dental coverage), food stamps, HUD, HEAP, CHS vouchers, subsidized phone, school lunches, Dollar a day car insurance, steep tuition scholarships and breaks, TAG/TAP pell, Earned income credit, and many others can easily approach $80,000 to $100,000 annually in benefits, with the right family circumstances.

I know one low income family that is currently sitting on close to $20,000 in food stamps in their account and cant even think of what to spend it on (they do live simply and can’t think of using it on high end food etc.)

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2021, 09:09:21 AM »
~8-9k a month
Is that income?
CC bill 2.5-3.5k
Does this mean all other expenses, or a past loan?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2021, 09:09:29 AM »
Then this estimation is worthless. These missing items can total tens of thousands.

(This is why people end up in debt, because they consider these expenses to be one off anomalies, instead of treating them as regular expenses and budgeting for them appropriately. /rant)
Don't assume the individual did not budget for them.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2021, 09:10:57 AM »
That’s a pretty low estimate. Medicaid, (Dental coverage), food stamps, HUD, HEAP, CHS vouchers, subsidized phone, school lunches, Dollar a day car insurance, steep tuition scholarships and breaks, TAG/TAP pell, Earned income credit, and many others can easily approach $80,000 to $100,000 annually in benefits.

I know one low income family that is currently sitting on close to $20,000 in food stamps in their account and cant even think of what to spend it on (they do live simply and can’t think of using it on high end food etc.)
Don't forget that (at least in NY) some items are sales tax free if bought with Foodstamps, and taxable if paid any other way.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline YitzyS

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2021, 09:13:58 AM »
+1
I know many, many people who were offered a better position at work but didn’t take it because he would loose more money by taking it, by not getting any of the government handouts.
FTFM

Offline aygart

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2021, 09:15:17 AM »
+1
I know somebody who was offered a better position at work but didn’t take it because he would loose more money by taking it, by not getting any of the government handouts.
Unfortunately he can be holding himself back permanently. He should look into options like401k, FSA etc
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Lurker

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2021, 09:16:26 AM »
Anonymous #2

4 children, Lakewood

Basic monthly expenses:
Childcare - $1,500
Housing and utilities - $2,400
Cars (insurance and gas) - $350
Groceries - $1,000
Target/Amazon - $300
Phones and internet - $150
Cleaning help - $200
Total - $5,900 monthly expenses

This does not include non-steady but inevitable expenses like clothing, travel, technology, takeout, gifts, and many other things.

A couple of notes: $1500 in childcare can mean 2 kids are still at home, or that they have all 4 kids in school with great scholarships. No car payments means cars are owned free and clear, which is a significant chunk of change. "Target/Amazon" Doesn't say what the expense is, just where it's being spent. And
Health insurance?
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2021, 09:16:49 AM »
Then this estimation is worthless. These missing items can total tens of thousands.

(This is why people end up in debt, because they consider these expenses to be one off anomalies, instead of treating them as regular expenses and budgeting for them appropriately. /rant)
Many of these things have to be budgeted for, but they vary widely, and can often be minimized when someone doesn't have money. People don't have to travel or buy gifts, takeout, or technology when they don't have extra money.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2021, 09:17:55 AM »
Health insurance?
Could be employer supplied or Medicaid, or an oversight.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2021, 09:19:16 AM »
A couple of notes: $1500 in childcare can mean 2 kids are still at home, or that they have all 4 kids in school with great scholarships. No car payments means cars are owned free and clear, which is a significant chunk of change. "Target/Amazon" Doesn't say what the expense is, just where it's being spent. And
We get you have a narrative and that is not going to change. The more people that post the clearer the picture will become.
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Offline smart man

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2021, 09:21:17 AM »
Many of these things have to be budgeted for, but they vary widely, and can often be minimized when someone doesn't have money. People don't have to travel or buy gifts, takeout, or technology when they don't have extra money.
Some people do have to though. Whether they can afford it or not. There are definitely people who would rather be in debt than never go on vacation or never enjoy some extras in life. And I don’t think you can blame them.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2021, 09:30:01 AM »
We get you have a narrative and that is not going to change. The more people that post the clearer the picture will become.

My narrative is that you're collecting irregular data with little context. If you want to get even a fuzzy picture, you need to standardize the data (a list of standard expenses) and add some more context (ages of kids, notes on expenses like teacher's discount on tuition or rent controlled apt or subsidized healthcare).
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2021, 09:32:13 AM »
This has long been a crazy problem. There should be at least a 30k or 40k range in which each benefit phases out.

For example, if the Medicaid cutoff line is $55k for a family of 4, and Medicaid supplies insurance worth $20k, then the phase out range would be from earning $40k to $80k, in which you lose one dollar of coverage for every two dollars you earn.

Obviously, the exact details would have to be tweaked, but we need to disincentives not earning, and we have to make sure it is always worth it to go to work.

One more factor that grows the chasm/moat between the haves and have nots and erodes what remains of the middle class. But the Ds want that, it’s their voter base and they can’t afford to lose it, the land of opportunity works against them.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2021, 09:38:42 AM »
Anonymous #2

4 children, Lakewood

Basic monthly expenses:
Childcare - $1,500
Housing and utilities - $2,400
Cars (insurance and gas) - $350
Groceries - $1,000
Target/Amazon - $300
Phones and internet - $150
Cleaning help - $200
Total - $5,900 monthly expenses

This does not include non-steady but inevitable expenses like clothing, travel, technology, takeout, gifts, and many other things.
Anonymous #2 here. I asked CV to post an update to answer some of the questions DDFers had on my first post.

I do budget for the non-steady expenses somewhat. I put money each month into an account for them, and I take out when they come up. But they can be $50 one month and $3,000 another, so it is hard to put a finger on it exactly. When that account is low, I try to minimize or push off buying said things.

I am on Jersey Care. I would've gotten kicked off last year, but I was kept on due to COVID. When I get kicked off, my children should still be eligible, so it will add about $250-450 a month, plus copays.

This is my childcare breakdown: 1 kid in school, ~$400/month, which I think is average for Lakewood yeshivos. 3 kids in daycare, ~350/month each.

Cars are currently owned free and clear, though I did pay off debts on them.

Amazon/Target includes everything from diapers to shampoo to toilet paper etc.

I don't want to bother CV anymore, but if he's willing, I'll try to answer any additional questions later.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2021, 09:43:32 AM »
That’s a pretty low estimate. Medicaid, (Dental coverage), food stamps, HUD, HEAP, CHS vouchers, subsidized phone, school lunches, Dollar a day car insurance, steep tuition scholarships and breaks, TAG/TAP pell, Earned income credit, and many others can easily approach $80,000 to $100,000 annually in benefits, with the right family circumstances.

I know one low income family that is currently sitting on close to $20,000 in food stamps in their account and cant even think of what to spend it on (they do live simply and can’t think of using it on high end food etc.)
Makes sense. If your household income is $30k and you get the whole gamut, that’s probably equivalent to $70k compensation. What kills people is that $50k makes you ineligible for most of it, and there’s usually no sliding scale, you’re in or your out.
Most government programs do have a phase out. The problem is there is a point where so many programs are phasing out that you can lose more than $1 per $1 earned.

FICA - 7.65%
EITC - 21.06%
FS - 30%
HUD 30%
We're already at almost 90% and I didn't even touch any of the small programs. Most people in this situation will not be paying any income tax because they have enough non-refundable credits to cover any tax that would be owed.

Medicaid is a little more complicated, I'm familiar with the NJ program. There is a hard cutoff for adults and a higher hard cutoff for pregnant women, but children have a phase out. There are increasing income brackets with increasing premiums and co-pays.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.