Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World

[TimT]

Starting salary in the 90's was $500 a week for someone just leaving kollel, you were able to buy a house for 200k in Brooklyn.

2021 - starting salary is $800-$1000, houses aren't 400k.

For starters, cost of living is way higher, and starting salaries are pretty relevant....

It just seems like the welfare nets & various government programs, grants & relief for kids, etc.. are much more now than they used to be.

[zh cohen]

For starters, cost of living is way higher

Standard of living is also a lot higher now

[Lurker]

Standard of living is also a lot higher now

This is one of the biggest factors. We forget that Jewish day schools were not the norm a couple of generations ago. People went to public school, and then went to Talmud Torah after. Education is a massive expense. We also have an ever growing cornucopia of kosher products which were previously unheard of, many of which have become staples in our homes. Even just the availability of kosher meat has changed our consumption habits, and not without a price.

Not specific to Jewish life, the standard of living in this country have risen, as well. To have a car isn't even a thought now, and many households have 2 or 3. That's without getting into leases, which were unheard of and are a major drain on long-term financial health. Appliances have also completely changed our budgets. Look around your house and you'll find staples we wouldn't think to live without, but that 40 years ago either didn't exist or were considered a luxury. Even the ones that did exist back then were much simpler, lasted longer, and weren't nearly as much of a stress on the wallet in terms of both initial expense and maintenance.

The list goes on...

[aygart]

This is one of the biggest factors. We forget that Jewish day schools were not the norm a couple of generations ago. People went to public school, and then went to Talmud Torah after. Education is a massive expense.
...
 but that 40 years ago either didn't exist

You need to go back MUCH further than 40 years to get to a point where Jewish Day Schools were not the norm.

[Lurker]

You need to go back MUCH further than 40 years to get to a point where Jewish Day Schools were not the norm.

50's, 60's, 70's? Around the time the people whose summer homes are being inherited now were raising kids? (I'm not suggesting the summer homes were purchased then, just that the financial foundations of the people who purchased them were built upon radically different circumstances.)

ETA: you also have to keep in mind that much of the frum world today can look back 2, 3, or 4 generations and find that they come from people who were much less frum than they were, and from people who didn't necessarily get a full-time Jewish education.

[aygart]

50's, 60's, 70's? Around the time the people whose summer homes are being inherited now were raising kids? (I'm not suggesting the summer homes were purchased then, just that the financial foundations of the people who purchased them were built upon radically different circumstances.)

The people who were raising children in the 50s would be in their mid to late 90s now with their grandchildren or even great-grandchildren raising children now. Even then the talmud torah model was on its way out and rare especially in larger communities. There were day schools all over NJ by then. My grandfather was principal in at least 4 different  day schools in random NJ towns that were not even considered to be large.

[Lurker]

The people who were raising children in the 50s would be in their mid to late 90s now with their grandchildren or even great-grandchildren raising children now. Even then the talmud torah model was on its way out and rare especially in larger communities. There were day schools all over NJ by then. My grandfather was principal in at least 4 different  day schools in random NJ towns that were not even considered to be large.

And the homes are being inherited from people in their 50's?

(Also see edit to my previous post.)

[aygart]

And the homes are being inherited from people in their 50's?

(Also see edit to my previous post.)

These homes are being inherited by people in my age group who went to elemetary school in the 70s and 80s in full-day Jewish schools from people in their 70s and 80s.

[Yehuda57]

50's, 60's, 70's? Around the time the people whose summer homes are being inherited now were raising kids? (I'm not suggesting the summer homes were purchased then, just that the financial foundations of the people who purchased them were built upon radically different circumstances.)

ETA: you also have to keep in mind that much of the frum world today can look back 2, 3, or 4 generations and find that they come from people who were much less frum than they were, and from people who didn't necessarily get a full-time Jewish education.

Oh come on, this is just revisionist history. Our grandparents who grew up in the USA were in Jewish day schools from the '40s

[aygart]

ETA: you also have to keep in mind that much of the frum world today can look back 2, 3, or 4 generations and find that they come from people who were much less frum than they were, and from people who didn't necessarily get a full-time Jewish education.

My father's parents were educated in Europe before the war. My mother's parents were home educated for Judaism. Both of my parent a"h were school educated.

[Lurker]

Oh come on, this is just revisionist history. Our grandparents who grew up in the USA were in Jewish day schools from the '40s

The very frum ones? Sure. Not all, but many were, maybe even the majority. It definitely wasn't unheard of to be in public school for secular studies.

What percentage of frum Americans today can say all their grandparents were very frum in the US from 1940-1980? Among the Conservative Jews, which (IINM) was the largest Jewish denomination, the day school system didn't really start to build momentum until the mid-to-late 60's, and only really became mainstream during the mass exodus from public schools during the 70's.

My father's parents were educated in Europe before the war. My mother's parents were home educated for Judaism. Both of my parent a"h were school educated.

All of my grandparents went to public school in Europe and Canada until 13-15, and they all came from extremely frum homes. Going to public school and supplementing for lemudei kodesh was still happening when my parents were in school (maybe 10-20 years older than you).

[aygart]

The very frum ones? Sure. Not all, but many were, maybe even the majority. It definitely wasn't unheard of to be in public school for secular studies.

What percentage of frum Americans today can say all their grandparents were very frum in the US from 1940-1980? Among the Conservative Jews, which (IINM) was the largest Jewish denomination, the day school system didn't really start to build momentum until the mid-to-late 60's, and only really became mainstream during the mass exodus from public schools during the 70's.

All of my grandparents went to public school in Europe and Canada until 13-15, and they all came from extremely frum homes. Going to public school and supplementing for lemudei kodesh was still happening when my parents were in school (maybe 10-20 years older than you).

But which ones are the group from whom these homes are being inherited?

[Lurker]

But which ones are the group from whom these homes are being inherited?

I don't know. From those I've personally seen, it's a mix. Most of the ones I've seen were generally from the higher end of the economic scale (generational family businesses, grandparents were professionals, etc.), and that's from both groups.

@Sam Finkelstein based on your observations, what are the family histories of the people who are inheriting summer homes?

[aygart]

I don't know. From those I've personally seen, it's a mix. Most of the ones I've seen were generally from the higher end of the economic scale (generational family businesses, grandparents were professionals, etc.), and that's from both groups.

@Sam Finkelstein based on your observations, what are the family histories of the people who are inheriting summer homes?

Either way, if we are dealing with a comparison to families that did not live a frum lifestyle with kosher food/camp/school/yom tov/families/etc then there is no comparison at all to the generation living a frum lifestyle and the conversation doesn't even start.

[Lurker]

Either way, if we are dealing with a comparison to families that did not live a frum lifestyle with kosher food/camp/school/yom tov/families/etc then there is no comparison at all to the generation living a frum lifestyle and the conversation doesn't even start.

With regards to inheriting summer homes in particular, I personally find that an evolution of lifestyles plays a part in some cases. Other than that, I agree that it's not relevant to the rest of the conversation.

[Sam Finkelstein]

I don't know. From those I've personally seen, it's a mix. Most of the ones I've seen were generally from the higher end of the economic scale (generational family businesses, grandparents were professionals, etc.), and that's from both groups.

@Sam Finkelstein based on your observations, what are the family histories of the people who are inheriting summer homes?

The original purchasers of the homes were immigrants who went into business (trading/printing/manufacturing) and did well enough to cover payroll. Never looked at their bank accounts, but they had rather simple lifestyles.

Either way, if we are dealing with a comparison to families that did not live a frum lifestyle with kosher food/camp/school/yom tov/families/etc then there is no comparison at all to the generation living a frum lifestyle and the conversation doesn't even start.

These people wore very simple clothes, their city homes were small and plain, and their simchas were very toned-down.

Regular frum people: ate Kosher, kids all went to Yeshiva but they spent summers in their second homes and I doubt went to camp.

[yos9694]

No question that housing costs have a lot to do with this. My grandparents instructed me that only 25% of my (after-tax) take home pay should be used for rent. That was laughable then, and more so now.

Also no question that Jewish day schools have become incredibly more expensive. Everyone likes to point at lavish or late model cars as destroying people's finances, but tuition costs the average frum family far more than either of those and it's due every year. Many people have come to take the attitude of spending as much as they can get away with since whatever is left will be taken in tuition. The cost of day school in the 40's, 50's, and even the 80's didn't even come close.

[aygart]

The original purchasers of the homes were immigrants who went into business (trading/printing/manufacturing) and did well enough to cover payroll. Never looked at their bank accounts, but they had rather simple lifestyles.

These people wore very simple clothes, their city homes were small and plain, and their simchas were very toned-down.

Regular frum people: ate Kosher, kids all went to Yeshiva but they spent summers in their second homes and I doubt went to camp.

This is exactly what I suspected that it is due to the younger generation leading a more extravagant lifestyle.

[Yonah]

Oh come on, this is just revisionist history. Our grandparents who grew up in the USA were in Jewish day schools from the '40s

FWIW - my parents (A"H) would be in their early 70s if they were alive today. While they didn't not go to public schools, most of their friends from shul did. My father said that at one point Abraham Lincoln high school in Brooklyn was nicknamed "Avraham Lincoln", and would close for Sukkos and Simchas Torah, because more than half of the kids and 3/4 of the teachers wouldn't show up - we're talking the mid to late 1960s.

[gozalim]

No question that housing costs have a lot to do with this. My grandparents instructed me that only 25% of my (after-tax) take home pay should be used for rent. That was laughable then, and more so now.

Also no question that Jewish day schools have become incredibly more expensive. Everyone likes to point at lavish or late model cars as destroying people's finances, but tuition costs the average frum family far more than either of those and it's due every year.

this

The cost of a piece of meat twice a week, or a washing machine don't begin to make a difference.
And the difference from zero car to late model car is maybe 1 kid tuition