Fuzzy Math - Personal Finances In The Frum World

[Ver hut gazugt]

https://collive.com/ulys-bar-mitzvah-package-10-years-and-counting/

$7500 is affordable???

I don’t know about affordable but it is much cheaper then doing it yourself.

[notyettaken]

https://open.substack.com/pub/yitz/p/frum-economic-collapse

We are still a while away from building robotics good enough to handle human engineering tasks that require max dexterity.

There is a BIG difference between an engineer and a tradesman. Engineers do not need dexterity, they sit at a desk, tradesman (electricians plumbers carpenters...) need dexterity.

IF you can replace accountants and lawyers with AI (I remain unconvinced as of now) then you can replace a lot of the STEM fields as well.

While he has a point with the problems he is pointing out, he seems oversold on STEM.

[Euclid]

There is a BIG difference between an engineer and a tradesman. Engineers do not need dexterity, they sit at a desk, tradesman (electricians plumbers carpenters...) need dexterity.

IF you can replace accountants and lawyers with AI (I remain unconvinced as of now) then you can replace a lot of the STEM fields as well.

While he has a point with the problems he is pointing out, he seems oversold on STEM.

the STEM he's referring to is Deep Tech. Which will never happen in the frum world en masse - it requires intense study, basically PhD level.

[notyettaken]

the STEM he's referring to is Deep Tech. Which will never happen in the frum world en masse - it requires intense study, basically PhD level.

PhD level STEM for the masses (any masses) is ridiculous, that kind of talent is rare.

(and PhD level STEM definitely does not need dexterity.)

[skyguy918]

https://collive.com/ulys-bar-mitzvah-package-10-years-and-counting/

$7500 is affordable???

I don’t know about affordable but it is much cheaper then doing it yourself.

Don't know how many people it's for, but it's probably a fantastic deal for what you're getting. We just finished making our first BM and tried to do things with an eye on the budget - spending where we would enjoy or get value from and not just because that's what people do. That also meant dealing with every little detail ourselves (ie no party planner). It was still almost $6k total. If I had to do it all over again I would love to have nixed the party altogether  - especially since we've now established precedent to an extent for our next 4 BM's. But if I had to do a party and this kind of package was available I'd strongly consider it.

Are 4 course catered affairs for the BM kid or the parents?

I hear that. We made the party because our son really wanted to be able to dance with his friends, but his main concern was the entertainment, not the quality or quantity of the food.

[yfr bachur]

A few random thoughts i've had on the subject, (and some ideas...)

A problem I see is that we kvetch and kvetch about the the financial pressures...
...but when people try to provide concrete (and, yes, drastic) solutions... they get shot down as unworkable, unfeeling, unfair...
(and I refer people to the responses on the first few pages of the ST war thread to suggestions that somethings like simchos be toned down...)
The only way to get anywhere is going to have to be by dashing peoples current (unrealistic!) expectations and dreams. A little bit upthread someone suggested having the chassan and kalla pay for the wedding would reduce the expenses greatly. This is so true! When I was getting married my kalla had her heart set on a particular thing that both sets of parents agreed was a bit much, and a teachable moment, so they told her "If you really want it, we'll do it for you, but if we don't do it, we'll give you the money it would have cost..." ... She took the money.

People cant say no to themselves, how can they possibly be saying no to their kids? (and we're now on at least the second generation of this!)

People currently making their parnassa by providing the community with luxury level services (or luxury level prices...) do not have the right to push against comunity takanos by saying that we will be hurting their parnassa. Better for these people to have to (re?)train for some other field than to be able to endlessly hold the financial gun to everyone elses head. (anyways, industries change, jobs become obsolete is a fact of economics).

A couple of ideas that are a fact of life in many Yeshivish kehilos in EY, that really should have little issue being imported to the US.
Classmates do not go to the (fancy?) Bar Mitzva seuda at all. (first cousins may go). Also not to the Aliya on Shabbos (unless they live really close by, like daven in that shul anyway). Theres a seudas chaveirim in the school during school hours, with a more or less set menu, and the school tries to combine a number of celebrations together to reduce costs and distruption.
Schools can take a stand against financial competetion anong the students. (I know, harder than it sounds). My is in a cheder with a vast  spectrum of financial abilities (like some people are likely can spend on a single shabbos a sum that is others entire months budget). The school has very clear rules: No branded apparel starting in Third grade. We will not let anything become a financial competition, if we see that something is becoming so, we will not allow it in school furthur.

It has to become acceptable again to make truly pashut simchos. Not the Takana lite style thing now seen as the simplest thing possible, truly pashut simchos - just to move the overton window of acceptable simchos back to something reasonable.

[Euclid]

Not the Takana lite style thing

Eli Fried mentioned in his (very good, worth the watch) speech at the Aguda Convention that in 2002 a chasuna cost $60k per side (in 2024 dollars), and now they cost $20k. His point was that takanas helped - although things move slowly and may take a generation.

[yfr bachur]

Eli Fried mentioned in his (very good, worth the watch) speech at the Aguda Convention that in 2002 a chasuna cost $60k per side (in 2024 dollars), and now they cost $20k. His point was that takanas helped - although things move slowly and may take a generation.

Havent managed to binge the entire AC yet, though I plan on it
love to see a source for those numbers.

[hvaces42]

Eli Fried mentioned in his (very good, worth the watch) speech at the Aguda Convention that in 2002 a chasuna cost $60k per side (in 2024 dollars), and now they cost $20k. His point was that takanas helped - although things move slowly and may take a generation.

No Idea where he got those numbers from. Maybe he's talking about Lakewood.

I made 2 weddings in the last year in NY BH. One Takanah and one not. The Takanah Wedding was 40-50k per side. The only splurge was the shabbos meals for aufruf that cost under 4k total.

Was recently at a Breslov (Liberty/R' Yoel Roth) wedding. They make it in their shul in Williamsburg. The wedding is over by 10:30PM. The Bachurim in the yeshiva cook a crockpot or 2 of chulent, 4 trays of potato kugel, some gefilte fish and tomato dip. I dont think the wedding cost $1000. While its admirable that people would make a wedding like this, it is just not realistic, unless you are part of THAT community, where it is demanded.

[jye]

Eli Fried mentioned in his (very good, worth the watch) speech at the Aguda Convention that in 2002 a chasuna cost $60k per side (in 2024 dollars), and now they cost $20k. His point was that takanas helped - although things move slowly and may take a generation.

On his linked in he clarified he was talking about the cost of the wedding hall/celebration itself not including gowns makeup gifts etc. I find it very difficult to believe that it was anywhere near 60k per side. Sure there was always Terrace on the park but the budget chasunah halls of 2002 costed 120k? No how no way.

[EliJelly]

No Idea where he got those numbers from. Maybe he's talking about Lakewood.

I made 2 weddings in the last year in NY BH. One Takanah and one not. The Takanah Wedding was 40-50k per side. The only splurge was the shabbos meals for aufruf that cost under 4k total.

Was recently at a Breslov (Liberty/R' Yoel Roth) wedding. They make it in their shul in Williamsburg. The wedding is over by 10:30PM. The Bachurim in the yeshiva cook a crockpot or 2 of chulent, 4 trays of potato kugel, some gefilte fish and tomato dip. I dont think the wedding cost $1000. While its admirable that people would make a wedding like this, it is just not realistic, unless you are part of THAT community, where it is demanded.

I believe he's talking just of the wedding night. (But then the $60k figure of the wedding night per side in 2002 makes no sense, even in 2024 dollars)

[hvaces42]

I believe he's talking just of the wedding night. (But then the $60k figure of the wedding night per side in 2002 makes no sense, even in 2024 dollars)

Just the hall??? Thats Ridiculous. Thats FUZZY MATH if there ever was any. I made 3 weddings over 2 years. The increase between the first and the last for the wedding night alone was astounding. They were in the same place. The cost for each item, Hall, Music, Photographer, Flowers, Badchen, Singer all went up over 10%

[yfr bachur]

Was recently at a Breslov (Liberty/R' Yoel Roth) wedding. They make it in their shul in Williamsburg. The wedding is over by 10:30PM. The Bachurim in the yeshiva cook a crockpot or 2 of chulent, 4 trays of potato kugel, some gefilte fish and tomato dip. I dont think the wedding cost $1000. While its admirable that people would make a wedding like this, it is just not realistic, unless you are part of THAT community, where it is demanded.

But there's a dissonance here.
If the frum cost of living is so unmanagable and even people making low hundreds of thousands of dollars are not making it on day to day expenses - WHY is this not much closer to what we as a community can realisticaly afford than 20-30K per side?

[notyettaken]

budget chasunah halls of 2002 costed 120k? No how no way.

(But then the $60k figure of the wedding night per side in 2002 makes no sense, even in 2024 dollars)

inflation adjusted
60,000 2024 dollars= 34,194 2002 dollars

[jye]

inflation adjusted
60,000 2024 dollars= 34,194 2002 dollars

Very misleading. I found the original 2002 NY Times paragraph he was basing it on:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/25/us/religion-journal-a-big-wedding-with-a-smaller-bill.html

'’A primary goal is to replace $35,000 weddings with $20,000 weddings,'' said Shia Markowitz, of Monsey, N.Y., who did some of the research that underlies the guidelines.

''We've said: 'People, stop. Stop the peer pressure to create more lavish weddings that cost many thousands of dollars more,' '' Mr. Markowitz said, citing showy smorgasbords, orchestras and ice sculptures.”

He was clearly not talking about your budget Vayoel Moshe/ Torah Viyirah 2002 wedding. Those never costed 120k even in 2002 dollars. I think Eli is great but the citation was flawed and misleading. Sorry.

[yfr bachur]

Very misleading. I found the original 2002 NY Times paragraph he was basing it on:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/25/us/religion-journal-a-big-wedding-with-a-smaller-bill.html

'’A primary goal is to replace $35,000 weddings with $20,000 weddings,'' said Shia Markowitz, of Monsey, N.Y., who did some of the research that underlies the guidelines.

''We've said: 'People, stop. Stop the peer pressure to create more lavish weddings that cost many thousands of dollars more,' '' Mr. Markowitz said, citing showy smorgasbords, orchestras and ice sculptures.”


He was clearly not talking about your budget Vayoel Moshe/ Torah Viyirah 2002 wedding. Those never costed 120k even in 2002 dollars. I think Eli is great but the citation was flawed and misleading. Sorry.

Beyond misleading, apples to oranges.
An expensive wedding in 2002 cost 60K per side in 2024 dollars.
A Takana wedding in 2024 costs 20K per side...

See, Takanos work 

As I said, Takana-Lite

[gozalim]

Re STEM/Tech:
You'd think that the same skillset/talent/focus that allowed our yungerleit to do well (post yeshiva) in accounting and law, would (and did) allow those who pursued it to do well in programming as well.
I'm not sure why that path is so farfetched...
(yes the bar would go higher, but I don't think the stating point got that much worse)
and aderaba, for a while tech had the upside that entry focused less on your college pedigree and more on actual skills and abilities (I hear that has changed somewhat lately?)

[Euclid]

Re STEM/Tech:
You'd think that the same skillset/talent/focus that allowed our yungerleit to do well (post yeshiva) in accounting and law, would (and did) allow those who pursued it to do well in programming as well.
I'm not sure why that path is so farfetched...
(yes the bar would go higher, but I don't think the stating point got that much worse)
and aderaba, for a while tech had the upside that entry focused less on your college pedigree and more on actual skills and abilities (I hear that has changed somewhat lately?)

That field is contracting too.

The STEM that isn't going away anytime soon is deep/hard tech. The rest of it is is in the same boat as the the other knowledge jobs.

[JuryDuty]

the STEM he's referring to is Deep Tech. Which will never happen in the frum world en masse - it requires intense study, basically PhD level.

Hard disagree. Source: me, not a phd.
Also "deep tech" lol

[gozalim]

That field is contracting too.

The STEM that isn't going away anytime soon is deep/hard tech. The rest of it is is in the same boat as the the other knowledge jobs.

any reason our boys can't grow into deep tech
(being good at law isn't easy either...)