Tragedy In Meron!

[yesitsme]

There is a big problem in EY that is similar to the people of color in the USA, its the law or the protocol, its the relationship between the police and charaidim that's screwed up, its the attitude for one another that needs to change.

[Luvisrael]

https://thechesedfund.com/vaad-ha-rabbanim/merontragedy

[AsherO]

While I completely understand the need and the urge, can we please try to refrain from assigning blame based off of some clips we saw online or on Whatsapp? Those cops are Jews, too, and the things they saw and the actions they had to take are things we wouldn't wish on anyone. In the spirit of the increased ahavas yisroel we've seen over the last few days, let's remember that it applies to the people wearing those uniforms, as well. The inquiries in the coming days and weeks will no doubt be very thorough. No one wanted this result. Absolutely no one. If there is blame to be assigned, it will be, and it will be something the person or people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. Until then, please don't point fingers.

Methinks blame is one way for people to make sense of such a horrific situation. Find another way.

[Yehudaa]

Methinks blame is one way for people to make sense of such a horrific situation. Find another way.

Absolutely. It's the first reaction listed here but far better alternatives are suggested later in that piece.

[Lurker]

There is a big problem in EY that is similar to the people of color in the USA, its the law or the protocol, its the relationship between the police and charaidim that's screwed up, its the attitude for one another that needs to change.

If there's a way to channel the dialogue in a productive way towards improving that relationship, IMO that would be a tremendous thing.

[JlmBoi]

If there's a way to channel the dialogue in a productive way towards improving that relationship, IMO that would be a tremendous thing.

A positive step would be the police doing something to at least acknowledge their terrible track record and do a serious investigation. It will take alot to restore trust. I don't care who you are, a policeman yelling at a child "If I wasn't on duty I would slice you up" is beyond anything remotely sane. I think the police here have a innate issue, the job attracts a certain kind of people.

[yerushabubby]

There is a lot more video evidence out today. This story of cops blocking an exit seems completely made up.

My son spoke with people who were pulled out of the pile of bodies - they saw police officers blocking the way.  They had been told not to let anyone IN to the Toldos Aharon section, and for some incomprehensible, obviously min hashamayim reason, were instead blocking people from leaving.  At a certain point, they backed off, but that just made things worse, as the press of people leaving (no one at the top knew what was going on) caused more people to pile on top of those who fell. 

I am not saying this in order to place blame - so many things went wrong in order for this tragedy to occur - but please stop saying that the eyewitnesses are lying!  There is no video from the moments before it happened because most people there do not have smart phones, and the wires to many of the security cameras scattered throughout Meron had been cut (accidentally or intentionally doesn't matter at all!).

[TimT]

Methinks blame is one way for people to make sense of such a horrific situation. Find another way.

Some of the people blaming are claiming to be eyewitnesses. Who knows. I’ve seen so much of the immediate aftermath but nothing of the seconds prior. Are there no surveillance cameras in that spot ?

[PlatinumGuy]

Some of the people blaming are claiming to be eyewitnesses. Who knows. I’ve seen so much of the immediate aftermath but nothing of the seconds prior. Are there no surveillance cameras in that spot ?

Too graphic for publication.

[TimT]

  and the wires to many of the security cameras scattered throughout Meron had been cut (accidentally or intentionally doesn't matter at all!).

Where did you see this ?

[TimT]

Too graphic for publication.

The videos going around are far more graphic.

[yuneeq]

There is a lot more video evidence out today. This story of cops blocking an exit seems completely made up.

I don’t think it was completely fabricated, you can hear witnesses saying this, but what witnesses they think saw during a crazy event isn’t necessarily true. In one of the clips the person standing in the crush is asking where the cops are, there were cops there but he couldn’t see them from his angle. Others saw cops standing near the bottom and would’ve assumed they were holding them back, who  would imagine that the people at the bottom were actually underneath with no ability to move forward? But stop for a second and imagine a few cops holding back thousands of people, it’s literally impossible, nor would any sane person attempt it. That’s why we still haven’t seen a single video of cops using a barrier, or pushing back at the unstoppable crowd.

[yerushabubby]

My son works up there most years (B"H this year he was busy Thursday night ) and spoke with someone from one of the hacnossas orchim organizations who tried to look up footage on their security cameras, only to find that the wires to their cameras, as well as many others, had been cut.

[shapsam]

I don’t think it was completely fabricated, you can hear witnesses saying this, but what witnesses they think saw during a crazy event isn’t necessarily true. In one of the clips the person standing in the crush is asking where the cops are, there were cops there but he couldn’t see them from his angle. Others saw cops standing near the bottom and would’ve assumed they were holding them back, who  would imagine that the people at the bottom were actually underneath with no ability to move forward? But stop for a second and imagine a few cops holding back thousands of people, it’s literally impossible, now would any sane person attempt it. That’s why we still haven’t seen a single video of cops using a barrier, or pushing back at the unstoppable crowd.

There was definitely a barricade blocking the bottom of the steps.

[YitzyS]

Absolutely. It's the first reaction listed here but far better alternatives are suggested later in that piece.

This is also a proper reaction.

[yuneeq]

There was definitely a barricade blocking the bottom of the steps.

 Show the video evidence but you won’t find any.

[PlatinumGuy]

I can’t find links but Israeli TV interviewed two survivors who were actually in the pile of people.
יוסף חי אמסלם who clearly stated he slipped backwards and fell on his back, then people fell on him and died around him.

דוד שלום who fell as well, but his head protruded. A police man crouched down on the floor, told him not to yell to conserve air and only think about breathing in and out. The cop kept slapping his face so he doesn’t lost consciousness. He was just on the news trying to find the cop who likely saved his life.

People who didn’t see the pile of people on the steps assumed these cops were needlessly blocking the path.

[shapsam]

Show the video evidence but you won’t find any.

If your watch the video closely, you'll see the first people are clearly leaning on it.

[aarony]

@Dan It would be nice if we could get the ball rolling on klal Yisroel jointly learning 45 million mishnayos lzn.  To be finished by lag bomer next year.  I don’t know where to start with this Because I don’t have the technological skills. I think we can get it done.  Let’s start when we still have all of klal Yisroel looking to do something constructive. 

[PlatinumGuy]

If your watch the video closely, you'll see the first people are clearly leaning on it.

They aren’t leaning on a barricade, they are piled onto each other. Watch the video again and post a screenshot here if you need help deciphering.