Author Topic: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?  (Read 20449 times)

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #160 on: May 03, 2021, 03:15:19 PM »
.. itís clear as day.
Overcast and cloudy by me.
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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2021, 03:27:03 PM »
Youíre joking, right? Those photos are proof it was on the side, resting against the wall.. itís clear as day.
Let's leave it to the investigators. I honestly don't have an opinion but check this out
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1970352/i-cried-to-the-policeman-take-the-barrier-away-or-people-will-die.html

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #162 on: May 03, 2021, 03:47:04 PM »
Let's leave it to the investigators. I honestly don't have an opinion but check this out
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1970352/i-cried-to-the-policeman-take-the-barrier-away-or-people-will-die.html

The "wall of death" he's referring to is not a barrier placed by cops, it's a literal wall that was installed along the sides of the path, see below. The cops ripped them out to alleviate the pressure

4. Ripping out the walls was by far the most important move to allow people out from behind and alleviate the pressure

Overhead view of site, red lines are walls that were ripped out to alleviate the crush.



Side note: YWN fake news taking liberty with the use of brackets ďI was next to this wall of death [a metal barrier placed at the exit by the police]"
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 03:51:47 PM by yuneeq »

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #163 on: May 03, 2021, 03:55:29 PM »
Let's leave it to the investigators. I honestly don't have an opinion but check this out
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1970352/i-cried-to-the-policeman-take-the-barrier-away-or-people-will-die.html
Thereís no need to leave it to any investigators. This is a claim that has been repeatedly debunked and shown to be blatantly wrong. This is similar to the George Floyd situation- cut and dry, no room for disagreement. There were literally no police (nor ďbarrierĒ) present at the moment of the tragic pile up.

As noted upthread, the article you quoted is referring to a wall along the side of the steps, not in front. Indeed, many videos show it being rapidly dismantled by police to help ease the flow.
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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #164 on: May 03, 2021, 04:00:52 PM »
Youíre joking, right? Those photos are proof it was on the side, resting against the wall.. itís clear as day.
How do you see it on the side, and not the front?
Look at the first picture.
The guy in the white shirt is being pushed from the back,  and leaning forward on the gate.
If you say the gate was on the side, there was no pushing there. Those people are already free and made a right turn after the steps.
From the fact that he is pushing on to the gate, the gate must have been in front.

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #165 on: May 03, 2021, 04:01:51 PM »
I honestly don't have an opinion
There is no room for an opinion here. There are only facts, true or not. Either there was or wasnít a barrier there (spoiler alert: there wasnít).
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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #166 on: May 03, 2021, 04:03:03 PM »
How do you see it on the side, and not the front?
Look at the first picture.
The guy in the white shirt is being pushed from the back,  and leaning forward on the gate.
If you say the gate was on the side, there was no pushing there. Those people are already free and made a right turn after the steps.
From the fact that he is pushing on to the gate, the gate must have been in front.
Look at the second picture for a better angle- itís obviously on the side.
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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #167 on: May 03, 2021, 04:08:25 PM »
How do you see it on the side, and not the front?
Look at the first picture.
The guy in the white shirt is being pushed from the back,  and leaning forward on the gate.
If you say the gate was on the side, there was no pushing there. Those people are already free and made a right turn after the steps.
From the fact that he is pushing on to the gate, the gate must have been in front.
Where are you saying this gate was? Right at the bottom of stairs or past the stairs at some other point?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #168 on: May 03, 2021, 04:11:06 PM »
How do you see it on the side, and not the front?
Look at the first picture.
The guy in the white shirt is being pushed from the back,  and leaning forward on the gate.
If you say the gate was on the side, there was no pushing there. Those people are already free and made a right turn after the steps.
From the fact that he is pushing on to the gate, the gate must have been in front.

He's being pushed by thousands of people and he has one arm extended against the barrier that holding thousands of people back?Does that make any kind of sense?

The "barrier" is on the side of him, not in front of him.

Google Sheet with Lakewood Covid numbers in profile for those interested.

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #169 on: May 03, 2021, 04:12:10 PM »
He's being pushed by thousands of people and he has one arm extended against the barrier that holding thousands of people back?Does that make any kind of sense?

The "barrier" is on the side of him, not in front of him.
We saw how effective these barriers were on January 6

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #170 on: May 03, 2021, 04:41:04 PM »
How do you see it on the side, and not the front?
Look at the first picture.
The guy in the white shirt is being pushed from the back,  and leaning forward on the gate.
If you say the gate was on the side, there was no pushing there. Those people are already free and made a right turn after the steps.
From the fact that he is pushing on to the gate, the gate must have been in front.

If they were in front of them then how were people walking alongside them in other pictures?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #171 on: May 03, 2021, 04:52:01 PM »
We saw how effective these barriers were on January 6
Time to move to the political forum?  :)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #172 on: May 03, 2021, 05:51:09 PM »
Hashem caused the Meron tragedy to occur for the same reason he brought Covid; so that we can all become overnight experts in epidemiology, engineering, and crowd control. Not. chĒv we shouldnít need more areas of expertise. Of course itís natural to analyze but letís not lose focus on the tzara as the Rambam says in hilchos taanis:
אבל אם לא יזעקו ולא יריעו אלא יאמרו דבר זה ממנהג העולם אירע לנו וצרה זו נקרה נקרית. הרי זו דרך אכזריות וגורמת להם להדבק במעשיהם הרעים. ותוסיף הצרה צרות אחרות
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 06:58:34 PM by yzj »

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #174 on: May 03, 2021, 06:48:35 PM »
Hashem caused the Meron tragedy to occur for the same reason he brought Covid; so that we can all become overnight experts in epidemiology, engineering, and crowd control. Not. chĒv we shouldnít need more areas of expertise. Of course itís natural to analyze but letís not lose focus on the tzara as the Rambam says in hilchos taanis:
אבל אם לא יזעקו ולא יריעו אלא יאמרו דבר זה ממנהג העולם אירע לנו וצרה זו נקרה נקרית. הרי זו דרך אכזריות וגורמת להם להדבק במעשיהם הרעים. ותוסיף הצרה צרות אחרות

FTFY

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #175 on: May 03, 2021, 07:36:49 PM »
What was the commotion in Meron earlier that day when police kneeled on someone for six minutes while another cop is spraying pepper spray on the bystanders who were trying to intervene, until the medics came and took over?

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #176 on: May 03, 2021, 09:10:54 PM »

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #177 on: May 03, 2021, 10:00:09 PM »
What was the commotion in Meron earlier that day when police kneeled on someone for six minutes while another cop is spraying pepper spray on the bystanders who were trying to intervene, until the medics came and took over?
https://ahblicklive.com/post.php?u_id=5iDvkj9DfxpR1b89q61

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #178 on: May 03, 2021, 10:42:30 PM »
After seeing a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks posting, I thought Iíd add my own 2 cents.


For those that donít learn the Daf, yesterday the Daf talked about the neis in the Bais Hamikdash that it was so crowded that your feet werenít touching the floor, and still everyone was able to bow down. Todayís Daf talks about that at first who ever reached the top of the Mizbeach first got to do the Avoda until someone got pushed off and broke his leg, then the Chachamim were misaken that they should make a lottery instead.

I took 2 points from these Gemaras. First, that the over crowding wasnít a reason to change anything, but as soon as someone got hurt they changed it.
Second point is who changed it, not the askanim, not the melech/ government, it was the Chachamim!

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #179 on: May 03, 2021, 10:51:24 PM »
After seeing a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks posting, I thought Iíd add my own 2 cents.


For those that donít learn the Daf, yesterday the Daf talked about the neis in the Bais Hamikdash that it was so crowded that your feet werenít touching the floor, and still everyone was able to bow down. Todayís Daf talks about that at first who ever reached the top of the Mizbeach first got to do the Avoda until someone got pushed off and broke his leg, then the Chachamim were misaken that they should make a lottery instead.

I took 2 points from these Gemaras. First, that the over crowding wasnít a reason to change anything, but as soon as someone got hurt they changed it.
Excellent tzu-shtell, been mentioned a few times but I like your take.
Second point is who changed it, not the askanim, not the melech/ government, it was the Chachamim!
Great point if youíre trying to say the Chachamim should be the first ones changing things. If your point is that it *wasnít* the askanim or the government, well, if the Chachamim wouldnít have changed it of course they would have. The gadlus was that it didnít need to come to that because the Chachamim already did it!



ETA
tzu-shtell: comparison
Chachamim: wise men (elders/sages)
askanim: doers
gadlus: greatness
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 10:57:38 PM by S209 »
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