Author Topic: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?  (Read 18817 times)

Offline yuneeq

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How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« on: May 02, 2021, 10:56:33 AM »
In the moments after the Meron tragedy, many have been quick to point fingers at cops and others, some erroneously and with lack of evidence or understanding of how the events unfolded, myself included.

While many have been correct to point out that this is not the time to point fingers or blame, many are incensed because they truly believe that someone murdered their brothers. How can you not be enraged if that抯 the case?

The point of starting this thread is to keep this conversation separate from the original thread, but also to hopefully come out with a conclusion based on the evidence that no one there was murdered, and that Hashem wanted the events to unfold the way they did. That we are allowed to self-reflect and improve ourselves based on the tragic events.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 11:41:04 AM by yuneeq »

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2021, 11:01:33 AM »
Thanks for starting this. Now we just need to move over all those posts in the other thread...
Monkeys don't fly unless you put them on airplanes

Offline yuneeq

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2021, 11:15:32 AM »
Graphic videos from the start of the collapse that gives an important perspective on the events including the following:
1. Crushing began before cops arrived
2. People that seem to be held back perhaps by a barrier, but in fact the up close view shows they抮e simply tangled and stuck.
3. People were lying on the floor at the edges and would have to be trampled on to get to the people on top
4. Ripping out the walls was by far the most important move to allow people out from behind and alleviate the pressure

https://streamable.com/gam5na
https://streamable.com/29z556
https://streamable.com/wub3xj

Overhead view of site, red lines are walls that were ripped out to alleviate the crush.



Infographic from @PlatinumGuy



3D video modeling of progressive crowd collapse
https://www.gkstill.com/CV/Modelling/CrowdCollapse.html

Offline CountValentine

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2021, 11:38:44 AM »
Thanks for starting this. Now we just need to move over all those posts in the other thread...
Hopefully we all understand not to post in other thread to discuss this.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2021, 11:41:00 AM »
Who was the organizer for this event?
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Offline mgarfin

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2021, 11:44:29 AM »
שתי נקודות מוות התרחשו. האחת כמסומן באיור, סוף המדרגות ושם בגלל חסימה משטרתית במדרגה האחרונה בסוף הגרם הוצבה גדר מברזל, שקרסה מלחץ ההמון וגרמה למפולת אנושית.
ואחת בסוף המקטע הצהוב. ללא חסימה




Online Yehudaa

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Offline yuneeq

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2021, 11:49:12 AM »
Who was the organizer for this event?

That抯 a tough question to answer as there抯 no single organizer and no one with full control. A few years ago there were steps taken to nationalize the site and make it more safe but they lost in Supreme Court because improvements were being made. The police are in charge of safety for the event, poor planning and poor infrastructure were both contributing factors.

Offline m65

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2021, 11:51:57 AM »
Who was the organizer for this event?
his name is: welcome to israel

Offline CountValentine

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2021, 11:54:35 AM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/meron-disaster-site-revealed-as-a-place-where-nobody-was-ever-really-in-charge/
The guy who takes the credit every year is Yossi Schwinger "CEO" of a quasi-governmental body which supervises (some) holy sites in Israel. I won't go into many details but in reality he has 0 control other than issuing VIP passes and choosing some preferred vendors.

It's a very complicated question with no straightforward answer, I think that on this forum the best informed member is @PlatinumGuy and he will maybe enlighten us as to his thoughts.

Everything in Meron is reactionary, not proactive.

But Schwinger needs to hang, even if not for this, for a list of (white-collar) crimes that is well known among the crowd and is slowly emerging in the media.
That抯 a tough question to answer as there抯 no single organizer and no one with full control. A few years ago there were steps taken to nationalize the site and make it more safe but they lost in Supreme Court because improvements were being made. The police are in charge of safety for the event, poor planning and poor infrastructure were both contributing factors.
his name is: welcome to israel
That is going to make trying to correct this situation (crowd control) all the more difficult.
Here is the US it would be the venue and organizer. They are the ones held responsible for the past tragedies.
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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2021, 11:55:08 AM »
Post in appropriate thread please with pics/videos
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=124523.0
He抯 probably referring to this.

The last 15 seconds.

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2021, 12:00:40 PM »
That is going to make trying to correct this situation (crowd control) all the more difficult.
Here is the US it would be the venue and organizer. They are the ones held responsible for the past tragedies.

The "venue" is a centuries old building that is owned by "charity trusts". These are the successors of trusts that were set up in the 19th century through which charity monies flowed from the Diaspora (then mainly Eastern Europe) to the "Yishuv" (Settlement) of the faithful in the Holy Land. The Ottomans up to 1917 and the British up to 1948 allowed these trusts to do as they want, and the modern state has been in limbo since 1956. It's a long long story but at the end of day, there is no-one in charge and no straightforward owner.

Online Euclid

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2021, 12:04:56 PM »
My son works up there most years (B"H this year he was busy Thursday night ) and spoke with someone from one of the hacnossas orchim organizations who tried to look up footage on their security cameras, only to find that the wires to their cameras, as well as many others, had been cut.

Every organization under the sun had their livestream cameras set up. It's reasonable to assume that during the setup of the technical infrastructure existing wiring was accidentally cut and/or spliced.

Additionally, how can one think that somehow there was was malicious intent for disabling of existing cameras when they added tons of new cameras for lag b'omer livestreams?

Conspiracy theories aren't helpful.

Offline dasmo801

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2021, 12:05:22 PM »
Graphic videos from the start of the collapse that gives an important perspective on the events including the following:
1. Crushing began before cops arrived
2. People that seem to be held back perhaps by a barrier, but in fact the up close view shows they抮e simply tangled and stuck.
3. People were lying on the floor at the edges and would have to be trampled on to get to the people on top
4. Ripping out the walls was by far the most important move to allow people out from behind and alleviate the pressure

https://streamable.com/gam5na
https://streamable.com/29z556
https://streamable.com/wub3xj



Video #3 above is the first thing that I have seen that helps me understand how this could have happened without a man made barrier blocking the way.
Google Sheet with Lakewood Covid numbers in profile for those interested.

Offline dasmo801

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2021, 12:10:17 PM »
He抯 probably referring to this.

I'm not a structural engineer but there is absolutely no way a little gate like that would last 10 seconds against the crush of thousands of people even if it was locked.

Again, I'm not expert, but my little brain tells me that there is absolutely no safe way for a crowd of that density to navigate the ramp, the sharp right turn and then the steps. Its frankly a nes that this never happened before.
Google Sheet with Lakewood Covid numbers in profile for those interested.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2021, 12:12:01 PM »
He抯 probably referring to this.

The gate is seen in 2 videos above, it was off to the side from the start.
https://streamable.com/29z556 notice the boy in red at 0:26 holding on to gate for support
https://streamable.com/wub3xj

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2021, 12:13:23 PM »
That抯 a tough question to answer as there抯 no single organizer and no one with full control. A few years ago there were steps taken to nationalize the site and make it more safe but they lost in Supreme Court because improvements were being made. The police are in charge of safety for the event, poor planning and poor infrastructure were both contributing factors.
I think there are certain askonim on the ground who actively run the construction and other preparations. R Bentzion Kuperstock who died from covid last year was a senior figure in that regard I understand.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2021, 12:16:06 PM »
שתי נקודות מוות התרחשו. האחת כמסומן באיור, סוף המדרגות ושם בגלל חסימה משטרתית במדרגה האחרונה בסוף הגרם הוצבה גדר מברזל, שקרסה מלחץ ההמון וגרמה למפולת אנושית.
ואחת בסוף המקטע הצהוב. ללא חסימה
Why are you propagating a random tweeter as gospel? Look at the videos. He抯 mistaken.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline mgarfin

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2021, 12:16:59 PM »
The gate is seen in 2 videos above, it was off to the side from the start.
https://streamable.com/29z556 notice the boy in red at 0:26 holding on to gate for support
https://streamable.com/wub3xj

maybe in the last seconds, it was moved but how did the bottleneck start? at what point was the barricade moved? maybe the pressure was too strong and when it was moved a pile-up happened.

We know there was a  barricade and it was moved. we don't know at what point was it moved.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2021, 12:18:34 PM »
Why are you propagating a random tweeter as gospel? Look at the videos. He抯 mistaken.

I wouldn't consider him a random tweeter, he is a popular chardi reporter. He still can be mistaken!