Author Topic: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?  (Read 18818 times)

Offline gozalim

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2021, 05:55:13 PM »
He also wishes Zohar was restricted to 40+

Should we suggest limiting Meron to those who study פנימיות התורה?

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2021, 05:56:53 PM »
He also wishes Zohar was restricted to 40+

Should we suggest limiting Meron to those who study פנימיות התורה?
People have been saying that. Without judging the idea at all, just suggesting it needs to be accompanied by a minyan of kabbalists singing Imagine.
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Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2021, 05:58:11 PM »
He also wishes Zohar was restricted to 40+

Should we suggest limiting Meron to those who study פנימיות התורה?

I don't "wish". I'm trying to come up with a solution that does not leave anyone feeling discriminated against. Because let's face it - the crowd is too big and there has to be a method to cut it down dramatically.

You can't make a yahrzeit over a week, it's not a festival, it's a day on the calendar.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2021, 05:59:25 PM »
https://t.me/asonmiron/2454

There is an elaborate TV interview with the FIRST GUY WHO FELL immediately after somebody slipped in front of him. The person who slipped has friends that pulled him away right away, this witness held on to him so he was dragged away too, and then behind him a huge pileup built up.

He testifies clearly that there was no barricade or police in sight, he ran to call the police, who arrived first before Hatzolah and did their best to save as many lives as possible.

@yuneeq will post, hopefully somebody can embed as itís very clear and not graphic
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 06:08:50 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2021, 06:02:41 PM »
What are they leaning on?
There is a human pileup. Some people are thrown onto from behind and appear to be leaning on it. Some are lying on the floor and you think they are leaning on something.

You can see in this video very clearly a pile of people in the same place youíre talking about, with nothing at all in front of them. No police, no barricade, no crowd. Only a pile of people on top of each other on the steps blocking everybody behind them. https://streamable.com/29z556
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yesitsme

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2021, 06:04:51 PM »
This doesnt make any sense. The back-up in the front caused the crush behind them as well.
What you wrote is what I believe happened, but others think otherwise

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PM »
What you wrote is what I believe happened, but others think otherwise
Youíre closing your eyes to reality.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2021, 06:05:58 PM »
I don't "wish". I'm trying to come up with a solution that does not leave anyone feeling discriminated against. Because let's face it - the crowd is too big and there has to be a method to cut it down dramatically.

You can't make a yahrzeit over a week, it's not a festival, it's a day on the calendar.
Sorry but that's not going to work on the not discriminated against feeling issue. According to many the yahrtzeit can be celebrated 3 days before and after. Many people and Rebbes do this every year. The people who go on the day will go. Last year with all the covid restrictions and fear a few hundred people got in. Why are you sure that there are no possible measures to make it safe for a large crowd? Maybe not as safe a your living room, but a significant improvement for sure.
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Offline Happyguy

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2021, 06:09:27 PM »
Why cant the whole bleachers area be knocked down and replaced with a wider spacious area (stadium style) and make multiple entrances/exits?

I can imagine the pashkevilin going up saying that they are turning Meron into a sports stadium but I think there would be equally harsh pashkevillen about these solutions
I was giving these some thought. Perhaps the Rabbonim, Rebbes, & askonim can work something out along the lines of;
1)Spread the praying out over several days.
2)Have the celebrations elsewhere.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2021, 06:11:53 PM »
C'mon man, מען גראבט ביינער

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2021, 06:13:15 PM »
but I think there would be equally harsh pashkevillen about these solutions
Not if it comes from the Rebbes/Rabbonim themselves.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2021, 06:14:10 PM »
https://t.me/asonmiron/2454

There is an elaborate TV interview with the FIRST GUY WHO FELL immediately after somebody slipped in front of him. The person who slipped has friends that pulled him away right away, this witness held on to him so he was dragged away too, and then behind him a huge pileup built up.

He testifies clearly that there was no barricade or police in sight, he ran to call the police, who arrived first before Hatzolah and did their best to save as many lives as possible.

@yuneeq will post, hopefully somebody can embed as itís very clear and not graphic

https://streamable.com/q38nqh
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 06:18:15 PM by yuneeq »

Offline S209

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2021, 06:18:49 PM »
@PlatinumGuy
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/305422
Read it, itís clearly referring to the wall erected on the side that yuneeq painted in red in his graphic, not a barrier in front. Itís very possible that wall was a mistake but it was obviously erected for crowd flow control not to impede people in the crowd.
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Online ExGingi

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2021, 06:19:55 PM »
https://t.me/asonmiron/2454

There is an elaborate TV interview with the FIRST GUY WHO FELL immediately after somebody slipped in front of him. The person who slipped has friends that pulled him away right away, this witness held on to him so he was dragged away too, and then behind him a huge pileup built up.

He testifies clearly that there was no barricade or police in sight, he ran to call the police, who arrived first before Hatzolah and did their best to save as many lives as possible.

@yuneeq will post, hopefully somebody can embed as itís very clear and not graphic

While this is extremely plausible, this would be just that person's (uncorroberated?) claim.

I haven't seen everything (nor do I intend to) but it seems to be that this was an unfortunate tragedy, mostly due to lack of planning and proper safety measures (some simple ones I've suggested). I highly doubt there was any malice. For all we know someone might have tripped, causing the police to block the massive crowds from trampeling that person, unintentially creating a larger disaster.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 06:25:02 PM by ExGingi »
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Online Ergel

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2021, 06:22:36 PM »
While this is extremely plausible, this would be just that person's (uncorroberated?) claim.

I haven't seen everything (nor do I intend to) but it seems to be that this was an unfortunate tragedy, mostly due to lack of planning and proper safety measures (some simple ones I've suggested). I highly doubt there was any malice. For all we know someone might have tripped, causing the police to block the massive crowds from trampeling that person, unintentially creating a larger disaster.
I have not watched any of the videos either (and don't plan to), but this seems like a very likely scenario
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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #75 on: May 02, 2021, 06:23:40 PM »
My chavrusaís brother was Steinmetzís roommate, and was with him and Kohn on the trip. He exited the steps seconds before the pileup, just ahead of them. There was no barrier blocking him at the bottom. I will find out more when I can (heís understandably going through a very hard time).

The last picture on his phone is him, Steinmetz, Kohn, and 2 others posing by the Kever, which he had sent to his family chat. When his parents saw where the incident occurred they were obviously frightened, realizing their son was right there. His father, unable to reach his son and frantically grasping at straws, called Steinmetzís father off the hook to ask if heíd heard from his son.

He immediately went searching for his friends who he believed exited with him but couldnít locate (service was down). For hours afterwards he was holding their tefillin wondering where they were... he didnít dream they were among the casualties.

There are many sights now embedded he wishes he could unsee.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #76 on: May 02, 2021, 06:25:59 PM »
While this is extremely plausible, this would be just that person's (uncorroberated?) claim.
There is plenty of video evidence that shows exactly that.

I haven't seen everything (nor do I intend to) but it seems to be that this was an unfortunate tragedy, mostly due to lack of planning and proper safety measures (some simple ones I've suggested). I highly doubt there was any malice. For all we know someone might have tripped, causing the police to block the massive crowds from trampeling that person, unintentially creating a larger disaster.

Willful ignorance. If you donít want to know, donít hypothesize and insist your hypotheses is possible because you donít want to watch the videos that refute it.

This video clearly shows people dying in a pile up with ZERO POLICE in the vicinity https://streamable.com/29z556.

It is disturbing beyond belief that people are accusing cops who arrived first on scene and saved many lives of intentional murder, and it is also dangerous when it leads to further mocking of police and safety directives.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2021, 06:28:20 PM »
https://streamable.com/q38nqh
Hopefully somebody can embed this. It isnít an eyewitness who may be confused or didnít see everything, but the first person who fell into cavity created by somebody slipping in front of him, and the first person who called the police from their position to the scene
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2021, 06:33:31 PM »
https://streamable.com/q38nqh
It seems clear as day, that the police had nothing to do with what happened at that particular spot.

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Re: How did the Meron tragedy unfold?
« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2021, 06:35:22 PM »
There is plenty of video evidence that shows exactly that.

Willful ignorance. If you donít want to know, donít hypothesize and insist your hypotheses is possible because you donít want to watch the videos that refute it.

This video clearly shows people dying in a pile up with ZERO POLICE in the vicinity https://streamable.com/29z556.

It is disturbing beyond belief that people are accusing cops who arrived first on scene and saved many lives of intentional murder, and it is also dangerous when it leads to further mocking of police and safety directives.

I am not insisting on anything. It was something I read elsewhere as a description. I cannot discern much detail from the video you reference, except for the fact that indeed there are no police there.

I am definitely not accusing the police of anything, but I would also be very careful about insinuating that anyone had an intention to murder r"l. I don't think a קטרוג on anyone is what is needed now (or at any point).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan