Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?

[Abey]

Rachimstrivka shul in BP with one entrance is especially dangerous, on Rosh hashanah and selichos it is literally a makom sakanah

[Abey]

Every other major chassidish event or levaye. We love to be cramped together like sardines

Many have multiple exit strategy and Hatzalah monitoring the crowd, lumping everything together will not achieve much…

[dasmo801]

Rachimstrivka shul I’m BP with one entrance is especially dangerous, on Rosh hashanah and selichos it is literally a makom sakanah

I would add, any shul with only one entrance.
This past Friday I walked into a shul for shachris. There was some major construction taking place and there was a single entrance/exit and probably 150 people in the room. We have to become smarter.

[yuneeq]

I’ve never been, but I can imagine Uman Rosh Hashana can be a dangerous event, compounded by lack of proper medical care and resources.

[ExGingi]

As happened in Versailles. The engineers all served prison time.

Might there be a difference between a business/profit-motivated vs a non-business event/structure?

The Versailles disaster was mostly a result of greed-motivated corner-cutting on multiple levels. https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3406865,00.html

[ExGingi]

As a bochur in 770 there were certainly times during Tishrei when I felt like I was getting carried with the crowd without any control or had to push back to stop from getting crushed.

Certainly claustrophobic, though at the time I didn't feel in mortal peril. Then again, others felt the same way about Meron in the past. And from what I understand, nothing was particularly different or more crowded than in the past.

I felt the same way at the Kotel on Shavuos at netz 2 years ago.

Maybe in this post-Meron world we need to examine, fix, or enforce capacity limits on other crowded spaces to avoid a repeat of such a tragedy?

Where have you felt like it could be too crowded for safety?

I have been to 770 Hakofos as well as Yomim noraim for more than 35 years. There are definitely things that have changed along the years (some for better and some for worse), I was once in Meron on Lag Ba'omer. IMO enforcing capacity limits isn't the way to go in such places.

As correctly pointed out

What happened needed a crowd control expert to prevent it, not a structural integrity engineer.

where crowd control needs to acknowledge the fact that the crowds will be there, and find the optimal way to make it safest for those crowds.

For example:

• Dividing the passageways into slightly spaced apart single file lanes (a version has been implemented to a certain extent in 770 on Simchas Torah for several years) can help make the bottlenecks safer.
• Proper communication, in advance as well as in real-time (using video monitoring and large screens so the crowd that doesn't realize the source of the bottleneck sees what's stopping or slowing them can actually see what's going on), of traffic flow, exit routes, and safe passageway for first responders.
  

[yesitsme]

Or you can just declare covid, see the NY post

[ExGingi]

Or you can just declare covid, see the NY post

Link?

[yesitsme]

Link?

https://nypost.com/2021/04/30/israeli-police-official-accepts-blame-for-deadly-stampede-report/

Unbelievable lack of sensitivity and arrogance. Seems like the Covid-19 opium caused some serious brain damage to this individual.

[JlmBoi]

I have been to 770 Hakofos as well as Yomim noraim for more than 35 years. There are definitely things that have changed along the years (some for better and some for worse), I was once in Meron on Lag Ba'omer. IMO enforcing capacity limits isn't the way to go in such places.

As correctly pointed out

where crowd control needs to acknowledge the fact that the crowds will be there, and find the optimal way to make it safest for those crowds.

For example:

• Dividing the passageways into slightly spaced apart single file lanes (a version has been implemented to a certain extent in 770 on Simchas Torah for several years) can help make the bottlenecks safer.
• Proper communication, in advance as well as in real-time (using video monitoring and large screens so the crowd that doesn't realize the source of the bottleneck sees what's stopping or slowing them), of traffic flow, exit routes, and safe passageway for first responders.
  

Everyone is saying it's a נס this never happened before. This may be my heart not my head speaking but I think R Bentzion Kuperstock was doing more than people know about to ensure the safety of everything. I was in some of the not so great situations in meron the last few years (pepper spray in the chatzer 2 years ago for example) I have experienced extreme crowding but never a crush like that in an area so packed with people. I left the Toldos Aron area through that route many times and while it was always slippery and no way to see what was ahead it was never anywhere near this bad. In general people here and on other forums are making general statements about Chasidim or other charedim not caring about safety, I'm not saying anyone is perfect, but I know that for bleachers engineers are used and during Madd gatherings on Yomim Noraim and the like a serious effort is made to keep the exits and the way to them clear and available. I have witnessed swift and efficient evacuations of people from places seemingly very cramped. There was always enough room to pass through and the people around were attentive and responsive to the need. @ExGingi is making a important point. There is a way to manage these mass events. I feel like in the past there was some level of this happening in Meron. I bh was there this year so I had so chance to Guage what was happening, from what I hear there were more people than usual at that time. @PlatinumGuy is saying there werent, I'm interested to hear what that is based on, and if that is a the general number of attendees this year or the concentration. I understood that because of Shabbos is was much more concentrated than usual at that time.

[Toasted]

What happened needed a crowd control expert to prevent it, not a structural integrity engineer.

Google 'crowd control expert' and you'll see that doesn't exist. It's usually the police's job and religious gatherings don't love to involve them.

[PlatinumGuy]

There would have been direct blame on the builders of the bleachers. Their picture would be on the front page of every newspaper right now. There is no way that they would have let it happen,even with “extra people” on them

‏האסון במירון: דו"ח המהנדס קבע עד 3000 איש לרחבת תולדות אהרון בפועל היו 20 אלף. (חדשות 12).
#

[yesitsme]

That's about the bleachers I believe, not everyone that gathered on the pavement, and those that come and go, meaning was there 20k on bleachers that can hold a maximum of 3k? Hard to believe

[yuneeq]

Google 'crowd control expert' and you'll see that doesn't exist. It's usually the police's job and religious gatherings don't love to involve them.

-2
https://www.gkstill.com/
I bumped into this site last night without even looking for it

[PlatinumGuy]

That's about the bleachers I believe, not everyone that gathered on the pavement, and those that come and go, meaning was there 20k on bleachers that can hold a maximum of 3k? Hard to believe

רחבה: Area.

I think 3000 was also the official covid-related limit, so there may be some confusion.

[CountValentine]

https://www.gkstill.com/

I have no knowledge of this person/company but that is exactly what is needed. I would be shocked if any venue is built without going through this analysis.

[ExGingi]

-2
https://www.gkstill.com/
I bumped into this site last night without even looking for it

Now, if the קהילות and הקדשות are smart they should engage this person/company or similar before any state official sticks their foot into it. Be ahead of the curve, to avoid it turning in undesired ways.

I would assume that the Boyaner would be a good place to start.

[Mordyk]

First it was reported that the bleachers collapsed. As I watch the bleaches filled to the max and jumping up and down is something to be addressed to avoid another tragedy.

These bleachers are usually very strong.  Big metal base that's professionally made to handle this. To collapse it would probably need to be bad reassembled, rather than cracking from pressure

[EliJelly]

Now, if the קהילות and הקדשות are smart they should engage this person/company or similar before any state official sticks their foot into it. Be ahead of the curve, to avoid it turning in undesired ways.

I would assume that the Boyaner would be a good place to start.

+1. Otherwise they'll have all excuses to nationalize it.

[PlatinumGuy]

I have no knowledge of this person/company but that is exactly what is needed. I would be shocked if any venue is built without going through this analysis.

The problem isn't the protocols. The official Israeli police rule for events like this is 1 exit per 1000 people. The issue is the police were bullied into approving a dangerous event (by politicians and a population that wouldn't obey if they did try to close it down). They certified it as a 'spontaneous religious event' that is considered unpreventable, so the police does everything they can to make it safer while admitting it would be better to cancel entirely if only they could.