Author Topic: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?  (Read 10482 times)

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 3999
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2021, 07:29:24 PM »
Now, if the קהילות and הקדשות are smart they should engage this person/company or similar before any state official sticks their foot into it. Be ahead of the curve, to avoid it turning in undesired ways.

I would assume that the Boyaner would be a good place to start.

I can’t understand your optimism that people will trust them that they will get it right “next time”. There is no next time after a tragedy like this, they can’t get ahead of the curve, they already drove the car off a cliff. It’s done. Kaput. Nigmar. No second chances.
Visibly Jewish

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2021, 07:46:11 PM »
The problem isn't the protocols. The official Israeli police rule for events like this is 1 exit per 1000 people. The issue is the police were bullied into approving a dangerous event (by politicians and a population that wouldn't obey if they did try to close it down). They certified it as a 'spontaneous religious event' that is considered unpreventable, so the police does everything they can to make it safer while admitting it would be better to cancel entirely if only they could.

It's not being cancelled and crowd not being reduced. It needs to be made as safe as possible under those circumstances. It is doable.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2021, 07:48:17 PM »
I can’t understand your optimism that people will trust them that they will get it right “next time”. There is no next time after a tragedy like this, they can’t get ahead of the curve, they already drove the car off a cliff. It’s done. Kaput. Nigmar. No second chances.

Do you say that also about politicians? About those approved the Pal-Kal construction that lead to the Versailles tragedy?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2021, 07:49:43 PM »
It's not being cancelled and crowd not being reduced. It needs to be made as safe as possible under those circumstances. It is doable.
There is definitely much that can be done to make it safer, but it isn't the Police's role to build out gathering sites, much less when they are privately owned. The government definitely should have done more.

 
About those approved the Pal-Kal construction that lead to the Versailles tragedy?
They went to jail.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline ltttc

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2019
  • Posts: 673
  • Total likes: 133
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2021, 08:01:45 PM »
Birchas Kohanim at the kosel

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 3999
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2021, 08:08:41 PM »
It will not reopen like in the past until there’s a single person responsible for the entire site and event. Right now the factions are in charge of the premises but the police are in charge of the safety. If the factions want to make improvements, they will have to get approval from the police. Bottom line - whoever controls the police will have all the control and be responsible, whether it get expropriated or not.
Visibly Jewish

Offline yesitsme

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 5020
  • Total likes: 2237
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2021, 08:21:40 PM »
לשיטתי
That to police was at fault , remove the police and you're good to go

I don't mean it literally but it is a response to those that say you had your chance
["-"]

Online ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6301
  • Total likes: 924
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2021, 08:25:32 PM »
Today's daf speaks about the crowding in the beis hamikdash being a nes.

Offline yesitsme

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 5020
  • Total likes: 2237
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2021, 08:26:12 PM »
Today's daf speaks about the crowding in the beis hamikdash being a nes.
This was posted many times today
["-"]

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2021, 08:52:38 PM »
There is definitely much that can be done to make it safer, but it isn't the Police's role to build out gathering sites, much less when they are privately owned. The government definitely should have done more.
Definitely not police role. Not sure if it's the government role. Government can say if people running the place don't get their act together we close off the perimeter.

They went to jail.

Everyone that was involved in approving the Pal-Kal method of construction? How about the multiple other failures that occurred in the months (or years) leading up to the collapse?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 08:57:11 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 8188
  • Total likes: 2713
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2021, 09:00:03 PM »
The problem isn't the protocols. The official Israeli police rule for events like this is 1 exit per 1000 people. The issue is the police were bullied into approving a dangerous event (by politicians and a population that wouldn't obey if they did try to close it down). They certified it as a 'spontaneous religious event' that is considered unpreventable, so the police does everything they can to make it safer while admitting it would be better to cancel entirely if only they could.
I'm not understanding, this has been done every year, it's not like they didn't know Meron exists. If they didn't plan properly because they thought it would be closed due to COVID then they're simply negligent.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2021, 09:26:30 PM »
https://www.haaretz.co.il/amp/opinions/.premium-1.9766498

Quote
לאחר אסון פסטיבל ערד ואסון המכביה, מכון התקנים גיבש תקן לבטיחות באירועים המוניים. התקן שנכתב ב-2006  דורש אחריות ברורה ומתועדת לבטיחות, שליטה מרכזית, יתירות והסקת מסקנות. אך התקן לא הושלם, ולא כלל את ההגדרות הטכניות למתקנים לאירועים המוניים. באופן טרגי, המדינה לא השכילה מאז להשלים את החקיקה לאירועים המוניים. נוהל אישור המשטרה לאירועים המוניים כמעט ולא כולל הנחיות הקשורות לצפיפות, ולעומת זאת יורד לפרטי פרטים של רישות האזור במצלמות אבטחה (למשל, סעיף 13-ג, מגדיר ש"מהירות הצילום לא תהיה פחותה מ-25FPS").

Dare I say typical Israeli priority list. It's important to define the level of video surveillance and that recording should be at least at 25fps, but actual crowd control measures might not be there.

It's more important to be able to investigate after the fact and be able to blame, than to proactively make the situation better and avoid disaster.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 09:37:50 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 5552
  • Total likes: 13697
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2021, 09:53:39 PM »
The ads on Lakewood Scoop

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2021, 10:15:10 PM »
-2
https://www.gkstill.com/
I bumped into this site last night without even looking for it

Fascinating read linked in that site: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/01/the-mecca-stampede-that-made-history-hajj

Some very relevant tidbits there such as the importance of people at various locations being aware of whether it is stop or go.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 10:30:02 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline efflpetzel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 2835
  • Total likes: 133
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile

Offline googwallet

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 1232
  • Total likes: 68
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: PA
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2021, 05:46:02 PM »
A little random but I recall as a child I went to Chaim Berlin Yeshiva in Flatbush on Purim and I recall seeing downstairs that they had brought in steel columns to reinforce the floor above where festivities were taking place. This comes to mind because I think it's important to point out that many organizers/events do take safety seriously and plan ahead.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2021, 06:03:53 PM »
I'm not understanding, this has been done every year, it's not like they didn't know Meron exists. If they didn't plan properly because they thought it would be closed due to COVID then they're simply negligent.

The police isn't in charge of planing events. They either approve or deny a plan. We all know the police couldn't deny Meron if they wanted to. Covid has nothing to do with this - it was certified as a 'spontaneities religious event' (which is a category for events the police cannot stop)  even before Covid, since it didn't meet standard safety protocols and the police didn't consider it safe enough issue regular permits.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline th0306

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Posts: 215
  • Total likes: 62
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2021, 06:23:57 PM »
The police isn't in charge of planing events. They either approve or deny a plan. We all know the police couldn't deny Meron if they wanted to. Covid has nothing to do with this - it was certified as a 'spontaneities religious event' (which is a category for events the police cannot stop)  even before Covid, since it didn't meet standard safety protocols and the police didn't consider it safe enough issue regular permits.

Please elaborate. Why not?

Online Abebee

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6380
  • Total likes: 591
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 735
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
  • Programs: National EE
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2021, 06:27:34 PM »
Please elaborate. Why not?
Protests

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Which Overcrowded Spaces Need To Be Fixed?
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2021, 04:05:25 AM »
Protests
That (along with frum politicians bullying the government), and many access points. It’s impossible to seal off hermetically
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים