Actual reasons people go OTD

[aygart]

I'm sorry if I came across as questioning where you got your answers from. It was not my intention. It was simply a long-winded way of saying

Which is basically what I wrote.

Many people have expressed being given a feeling of not being allowed to ask. I cannot speak to that because I did not experience it.

[aygart]

Without going too much further down this rabbit hole, I believe that very rarely is it only one of the 4 categories you describe. It's most often combinations of two, three, or even all 4 reasons, and likely a few more that weren't mentioned. This is what I've been trying to clarify with my posts. When you're diagnosing people who went OTD as a post mortem, trying to figure out how they got to where they are, pointing to a single cause is usually wrong and almost always unproductive. When trying to analyze why many of them point to theological issues, when we know that there are very, very few cases of people leaving for purely theological reasons, we have to acknowledge that reasons 1, 2, or 3 all lead to theological questions, and if the answers aren't forthcoming or are unsatisfactory (for whatever reason), theology becomes "the" reason. It's important to understand that when an OTD person says this, they truly do mean it and they may not be lying.

That is basically my point. As much as they may point to theology and actually mean it that can be more of an answer than questions.

I would imagine that very few state the real reason, if they are even aware of it.

The "questions" are really tirutzim. (Based on story with R Chaim Brisker)

[cmey]

I believe that you may be conflating theology with philosophy. IINM, theology is the study of religions and belief systems, with certain things within those systems accepted as facts, proven or not. To be able to answer every question with provable and irrefutable facts would effectively cancel theology in general, and Emunah in particular, which is a foundational tenet of Judaism. There would be no beliefs, only facts.

The question you're essentially asking is, "What are G-d's motivations?" You gave an example of an indescribable horrendous occurrence, but the same question can be asked of seemingly good occurrences, too. Jewish theology is predicated on the belief that G-d is beyond human understanding. G-d is limitless, and to assume humans can understand G-d would be limiting G-d's capabilities to the limits of human thought. While we can look to Torah to see if G-d has told us His motivation for some things, there is no way to know all of His thoughts and reasons.

Things may happen in life that challenge some of the things your theology gives as facts. It may cause you to choose not to accept some of those things as facts anymore. It's something I have personally struggled with, and I'm not a Holocaust survivor or the victim of tragic circumstances. My attempt at a possible answer to your question above won't cut it for many people. It's why I cannot judge people who choose not to believe the things I believe as the basis for my existence and the way I should live my life.

** I am not an academic and I'm most certainly not nearly as well versed on these topics (or any topic) as some other DDFers, let alone the great minds and scholars of the world. The opinions above are simply a poor attempt to express my limited thoughts and understandings. **

Most OTD individuals I know who claim to be motivated by truth are not focused on abstract theological concepts like the nature of immortality of the soul,  free will vs determinism, or immanence vs transcendent. They are focused on empirical experience. If G-d is——- why is it that——-? If the Torah is——— how come ——-. If Judaism is—— then why——-? And so on. Yet these questions often occur to them after other factors that already influenced them to go OTD.

My relative visited Poland and will point to the extermination camp as proof, but he went OTD due to other factors long before. I don’t question that many OTD individuals really feel they are being true to themselves but if the theological questions did not preceed the other factors that led them to go OTD then the timeline is quite relevant.

[Lurker]

I don’t question that many OTD individuals really feel they are being true to themselves but if the theological questions did not preceed the other factors that led them to go OTD then the timeline is quite relevant.

Relevant to what? Will your answers to their questions change? Or is it only relevant in how you will determine what their true motivations are for going OTD? If the latter, then to what end?

[cmey]

Relevant to what? Will your answers to their questions change? Or is it only relevant in how you will determine what their true motivations are for going OTD? If the latter, then to what end?

I think it’s relevant for the following reason. I will treat all human beings with compassion no matter the choices they make, or how low they have fallen. But many OTD individuals don’t merely want my compassion or understanding. They want my respect.
The argument is often framed as “why can’t you respect my search for the truth. Would you expect me to be untrue to myself and my beliefs? I should be respected for bravely following my convictions which are every bit as legitimate as yours.”

Given the above I can feel for them and try to understand their feelings (and often their pain). But I do not equate their choice with others who are truly living with their convictions.

It’s also relevant on a communal level. We have limited resources. Where do we focus our resources to more effectively address OTD? Do we focus most of our efforts on theology and strengthening foundations or do we focus more on addressing the personal and social factors involved?

[Lurker]

I think it’s relevant for the following reason. I will treat all human beings with compassion no matter the choices they make, or how low they have fallen. But many OTD individuals don’t merely want my compassion or understanding. They want my respect.
The argument is often framed as “why can’t you respect my search for the truth. Would you expect me to be untrue to myself and my beliefs? I should be respected for bravely following my convictions which are every bit as legitimate as yours.”

Given the above I can feel for them and try to understand their feelings (and often their pain). But I do not equate their choice with others who are truly living with their convictions.

Sorry, I don't get it. Love and respect them as Jews, regardless of their choices or motivations. You want to make an internal cheshbon to respect some people more than others because you think they're more genuine individuals? Who cares? Why does anyone else need to know that? You're not condoning their choices whether their motivations are pure or not, either way.

It’s also relevant on a communal level. We have limited resources. Where do we focus our resources to more effectively address OTD? Do we focus most of our efforts on theology and strengthening foundations or do we focus more on addressing the personal and social factors involved?

BS. I challenge you to find me any community which truly has to make a choice between diverting resources to either theological or "personal/social" factors at the expense of the other. I can see some places being torn between the various personal/social factors, but at the expense of strengthening theology... I'm not buying it.

[Kobe Bryant]

Corn salad and tuna salad by shalosh seudos

[aygart]

Relevant to what? Will your answers to their questions change? Or is it only relevant in how you will determine what their true motivations are for going OTD? If the latter, then to what end?

So we can hock about on DDF! Was there any other option?

[AsherO]

Corn salad and tuna salad by shalosh seudos

You missed out chopped liver.

[Euclid]

You missed out chopped liver.

At shalosh seudos???

[AsherO]

At shalosh seudos???

tbh I haven’t a clue...

[Shmobaum]

This conversation is really fascinating.