War in Israel

[CountValentine]

Not sure why you chose to reply this to the second half of what I wrote and delete the part where I wrote about the news and its viewers

For the record I have no issue with the first part.
 
I quote parts I responding to to try and make things more on point.

[PlatinumGuy]

הרצחת וגם ירשת?

Are you holding one Arab accountable for the actions of a different Arab? That is precisely the issue with anti-Semitism and racism.

@PlatinumGuy would you qonsider the story a kiddish Hashem or chillul Hashem?

If it is halachically muttar, obviously Kiddush Hashem - why would you think otherwise?

If it's halachically assur (the donor is considered alive or Aiva isn't enough to justify breaching Kavod Hameis), it's actually a very good question. On the one hand, we know Chilul Hashem is based on the observers perception and not intrinsic right/wrong, but on the other hand obviously it's hard to believe somebody can do an issur and be considered Kiddush Hashem. It's also possible it's neither Chilul Hashem nor Kiddush Hashem (that would probably be my guess), and potentially has aspects of Chilul hashem combined with kiddush hashem.

Obviously, a Chilul Hashem, as organ harvesting involves killing a person who is considered alive according to Halacha.

That is of course subject to dispute

האוסרים הם: הרב אויערבאך זצ”ל אסיא נ”ג, 5-16; הרב אלישיב שליט”א, הרב ולדינברג בציץ אליעזר יז, סו; הרב עובדיה יוסף יחו”ד ב, יד; הרב וואזנר שבט הלוי ז, רלה; ועיין נשמת אדם ח”ב ע’ רמ”א-רמ”ד, וח”ד ע’ קל”ג-ק”נ.

המתירים: הרב אברהם שפירא שליט”א, הרב מרדכי אליהו שליט”א, הרב ישראלי זצ”ל אסיא ז’ ע’ 167, הרב גרשוני שבילין לא,לב, וכן העידו בשם הרב פיינשטיין בני משפחתו, הרב ד”ר טנדלר, והרב רפפורט, אסיא ז’ ע’ 148.

[aygart]

For the record I have no issue with the first part.
 
I quote parts I responding to to try and make things more on point.

except the news is exactly what I addressed in the first part. Someone whose only view comes from what they see on the evening news can be excused that their bias is due to the reporter's anti-semitic selective reporting and that they may not be bad people.

[EliJelly]

That is of course subject to dispute

האוסרים הם: הרב אויערבאך זצ”ל אסיא נ”ג, 5-16; הרב אלישיב שליט”א, הרב ולדינברג בציץ אליעזר יז, סו; הרב עובדיה יוסף יחו”ד ב, יד; הרב וואזנר שבט הלוי ז, רלה; ועיין נשמת אדם ח”ב ע’ רמ”א-רמ”ד, וח”ד ע’ קל”ג-ק”נ.

המתירים: הרב אברהם שפירא שליט”א, הרב מרדכי אליהו שליט”א, הרב ישראלי זצ”ל אסיא ז’ ע’ 167, הרב גרשוני שבילין לא,לב, וכן העידו בשם הרב פיינשטיין בני משפחתו, הרב ד”ר טנדלר, והרב רפפורט, אסיא ז’ ע’ 148.

You gotta apply your mainstream approach everywhere

[PlatinumGuy]

i dont think i could, i think the beis din could.
if the average beis din didnt execute even once in 70 years, that means they probably were good enough at confusing witnesses.
im not gonna argue about the number 99% or 98% or 95%, if u are older than 7 years old u should understand that my point wasnt the number 99.

The average BD that only executed once is 70 years (according to one opinion), required 2 witnesses and התראה.

Now you're just pretending there is no difference between confusing 2 witnesses to the point where they contradict each other and one witness who is valid unless he forgets a key part of the testimony.

Obviously, even if 99% of 2 witness testimonies can be invalided, it would bear no resemblance to 1 witness and the number would be close to zero, not 95%

You are 100% wrong and 100% closing your eyes to it.

it will be a CH if they think we dont keep the torah,

So if observers assume ואהבת לרעך כמוך requires tolerating gays, it could possibly be a Chilul Hashem to kill them despite it being commanded by the Torah, and if it is a chilul hashem, of course one should be embarrassed by it.

Just like Toisfos says it would be a Chilul Hashem to evict the 7 nations from EY in that case despite it being commanded by the Torah.

[PlatinumGuy]

You gotta apply your mainstream approach everywhere

I never asked anybody to accept or believe something because it is mainstream (obviously I am the antithesis to that here), only to tolerate it as a legitimate position.

[PlatinumGuy]

Are they the only ones who are included in?

I didn't dispute anything related to other grievances and criticism.

Also worth pointing out there are degrees of anti-Semitism. Being biased by omission is very low on the totem pole.

[aygart]

I didn't dispute anything related to other grievances and criticism.

Also worth pointing out there are degrees of anti-Semitism. Being biased by omission is very low on the totem pole.

The omission isn't the bias. It shows that, for example, the way they persecute Israel at various "Human Rights Organizations" is not because of any violations but rather because they are anti-semites. The anti-semitism is the persecution and the omission is what shows it.

[PlatinumGuy]

The omission isn't the bias. It shows that, for example, the way they persecute Israel at various "Human Rights Organizations" is not because of any violations but rather because they are anti-semites. The anti-semitism is the persecution and the omission is what shows it.

Would you say every racist judge who locks up a guilty Black criminal is only acting out of racism? Persecuting somebody who is guilty is a whole lot lower on the totem pole than persecuting somebody who isn't guilty, no matter the ulterior motive.

Either way, can you name a 'Human Rights Organization' that acts in the way you describe? More often than not, those claims are populist spins without basis. (E.g. the ICC that has a similar standard since it's founding to only investigate violations when a claim is filed by the aggrieved nation, something Israel refuses to do for obvious reasons)

[CountValentine]

...the reporter's anti-semitic selective reporting...

Facts not in evidence.
I don't expect you to provide info that is not going to support your view. By you not providing that info does not make you automatically anti anything.

[Ver hut gazugt]

Would you say every racist judge who locks up a guilty Black criminal is only acting out of racism? Persecuting somebody who is guilty is a whole lot lower on the totem pole than persecuting somebody who isn't guilty, no matter the ulterior motive.

Either way, can you name a 'Human Rights Organization' that acts in the way you describe? More often than not, those claims are populist spins without basis. (E.g. the ICC that has a similar standard since it's founding to only investigate violations when a claim is filed by the aggrieved nation, something Israel refuses to do for obvious reasons)

The top United Nations human rights body decided on Thursday to create an open-ended international investigation into Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, after the UN rights chief said Israeli forces may have committed war crimes and faulted the Hamas terror group for violations of international law in their 11-day war this month.

The 24-9 vote, with 14 abstentions, capped a special Human Rights Council session on the rights situation faced by Palestinians. The session and the resolution were arranged by the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, which has strongly supported the Palestinians in their conflicts with Israel.

Israel rejected the resolution, saying it would not cooperate with such a probe. The Foreign Ministry said the move “completely ignores the 4,300 rockets toward Israeli citizens” fired from Gaza during the recent bout of fighting. It called the decision a “moral stain on the international community and the UN.”

[PlatinumGuy]

You're proving the point. Are you claiming the UN HRO only investigates Israel?

More often than not, those claims are populist spins without basis. (E.g. the ICC that has a similar standard since it's founding to only investigate violations when a claim is filed by the aggrieved nation, something Israel refuses to do for obvious reasons)

[Jellybelly]

@PlatinumGuy
Next question
If an Israeli soldier dies in battle, did he die al kiddish Hashem or not?
😜

[EliJelly]

@PlatinumGuy
Next question
If an Israeli soldier dies in battle, did he die al kiddish Hashem or not?
😜

OMG

[PlatinumGuy]

@PlatinumGuy
Next question
If an Israeli soldier dies in battle, did he die al kiddish Hashem or not?
😜

R Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and most left of him held that yes, right from him it is a subject of some debate  - R Menashe Klein held that they aren't

It is not clearly defined what it means to 'die al kiddish Hashem', what the bar for it is, and how is the death a Kiddush Hashem, so I don't have much to contribute on the subject. The source of the concept is הרוגי לוד, whom Rashi (BB 10b) says gave themselves up to be killed instead of other Jews whom were being targeted, saving them. (Although other Rishonim disagree and learn like the Yerushalmi that they were killed because they wouldn't obey orders to commit specific issurim, which is the classic Mitzva of Kiddush Hashem that Gemara סנהדרין עד learns from ונקדשתי בתוך בני ישראל and is the reason on 3 cardinal sins יהרג ואל יעבור)

The Rama brings

הגה אבל רגיל לעשות עבירה אין מתאבלין עליו (מרדכי סוף מ"ק) וכל שכן על מומר לעבודת כוכבים (שם ופוסקים וכן מוכח מש"ס פי' נגמר הדין וכמה דוכתי)   וי"א דאין מתאבלין וכן עיקר (שם בשם ר"ח) שנהרג בידי עובד כוכבים מתאבלים עליו (הגהת אשיר"י פרק א"מ וא"ז)

Without any qualfictions as to why he was killed.

Which is supported by the שו"ת מהרי"ל

ומה שכתב' בהני דנהרגו מתוך רשען דמיקרי קדוש וחסיד אין ה"נ קרא נמי כתיב נתנו נבלת עבדך וגומר ומוקמינ' בהני דנהרגים מתוך רשען

On the other hand, the מהר"ח אור זרוע applies a higher standard, which most non religious soldiers and Holocaust victims would probably not meet:

זה לשון אבא מארי זצוק"ל בסימני אור זרוע אדם שעבר עברה שיש בה חיוב מיתה ומת מתוך רשעו דהיינו קודם שעשה תשובה אין מתאבלין עליו נהרג בידי גוים מתוך רשעו הויא ליה כפרה ומתאבלין עליו עכ"ל אבא מארי זצוק"ל. ומעתה כ"ש וכ"ש עד סוף כל העולם שנהרג מתוך צדקו בידי גוים כגון אלו הקדושים שנהרגו בידי גוים על קידוש הב"ה ונתקדשו על יחוד שמו יתברך שמתאבלין, ומי שאמר שאין להתאבל א"כ הוא מוציא לעז עליהם ומדמי להו ח"ו מת מתוך רשעו

(P.s. Excellent way to spend hours of HUCA with idiotic TK agents, believe it or not eventually they managed to refund a simple refundable ticket)

[yelped]

]
On the other hand, the מהר"ח אור זרוע applies a higher standard, which most non religious soldiers and Holocaust victims would probably not meet: 

Huh? I think you misunderstood the Marach Ohr Zurea.

[Happyguy]

R Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and most left of him held that yes, right from him it is a subject of some debate  - R Menashe Klein held that they aren't

The shaila is about which type of soldiers did RSZ say this.

1) Soldiers ranging from Nachal Charedi, Chardal, Mizrachi/Dati Leumi and anyone who is a Ma'amin.

2) Soldiers who aren't Ma'aminim but are fighting to to save Am Yisrael.

3) A category which was mainly at the beginning and before the creation of the State, fighting in order to create a secular state and replace the the weak Jew in the Shtetl in Eastern Europe with the Zionist.

I am in doubt about the soldiers in Category 2 as they are doing something noble but without doing it Leshem Shamayim - so I am unsure if that can make someone a Kadosh, but about Category 3, I quote the Gemara in Avoda Zara 2b:

 דאמר להם הקב"ה במאי עסקתם אומרים לפניו רבש"ע הרבה שווקים תקנינו הרבה מרחצאות עשינו הרבה כסף וזהב הרבינו וכולם לא עשינו אלא בשביל ישראל כדי שיתעסקו בתורה האמר להם הקב"ה שוטים שבעולם כל מה שעשיתם לצורך עצמכם עשיתם תקנתם שווקים להושיב בהן זונות מרחצאות לעדן בהן עצמכם כסף וזהב שלי הוא שנאמר (חגי ב, ח) לי הכסף ולי הזהב נאם ה' צבאות וכלום יש בכם מגיד זאת שנאמר מי בכם יגיד זאת ואין זאת אלא תורה שנאמר (דברים ד, מד) וזאת התורה אשר שם משה מיד יצאו בפחי נפש

 First, the members of the Roman Empire enter. The Holy One, Blessed be He, says to them: With what did you occupy yourselves? They say before Him in response: Master of the Universe, we have established many marketplaces, we have built many bathhouses, and we have increased much silver and gold. And we did all of this only for the sake of the Jewish people, so that they would be free to engage in Torah study. 5The Holy One, Blessed be He, says to them: Fools of the world! Are you attempting to deceive Me? Everything that you did, you did for your own needs. You established marketplaces to place prostitutes in them; you built bathhouses for your own enjoyment; and as for the silver and gold that you claim to have increased, it is Mine, as it is stated: “Mine is the silver, and Mine the gold, said the Lord of hosts” (Haggai 2:. 6Is there no one among you who can declare that they have studied this Torah? This is the meaning of the continuation of the verse from Isaiah, as it is stated: “Who among them can declare this?” (Isaiah 43:9). And “this” is referring to nothing other than the Torah, as it is stated: “And this is the Torah that Moses set before the children of Israel” (Deuteronomy 4:44), and whoever did not engage in its study does not receive reward. Immediately, the members of the Roman Empire leave disappointed.

We see from the Gemara that if one does something with evil intentions, then one still gets zero schar for any good that may have come out through their actions.

[JlmBoi]

The shaila is about which type of soldiers did RSZ say this.

1) Soldiers ranging from Nachal Charedi, Chardal, Mizrachi/Dati Leumi and anyone who is a Ma'amin.

We see from the Gemara that if one does something with evil intentions, then one still gets zero schar for any good that may have come out through their actions.

1. Just bc they are maaminim doesnt mean they are acting lshem shamayim. (There was no Nachal Charedi in RSZ time btw)

2. IMO that is referring to the Romans. A Jew that has a neshama has deep within him a will to do good, so even if he thinks he isn't doing it for the right reason, he is on some level. This is one of the explanations of מתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה.

[TimT]

Are you claiming the UN HRO only investigates Israel?

Only 30% have been against Israel. Which makes sense as Israel must be responsible for a third of the world’s human rights abuses.

[yesitsme]

Only 30% have been against Israel. Which makes sense as Israel must be responsible for a third of the world’s human rights abuses.

If you measure by intelligence it makes sense