War in Israel

[CountValentine]

I usually see your "But Officer" arguments, but I'm having trouble with this one. Can you please spell it out?

Read the one line I posted. 

I love how everyone is trying to twist this into somehow I am against the billions given to Israel each year. By beef is them asking for more when the US has already said they would replenish the Iron Dome. To me that is being ungrateful. Now you can disagree but you can't twist this into I am against aid to Israel.

[Lurker]

Read the one line I posted. 

I'm not following. The issue that article addresses is the complaint that we give more military aid to Israel than anywhere else. The article explains that while the dollar amount may be higher, it's balanced out by the reduced risk and expense of not having military personnel on the ground.

I love how everyone is trying to twist this into somehow I am against the billions given to Israel each year. By beef is them asking for more when the US has already said they would replenish the Iron Dome. To me that is being ungrateful. Now you can disagree but you can't twist this into I am against aid to Israel.

Someone made a comment that we derive economic benefit from the aid. You challenged that. People are responding to that challenge. That's it.

Your wife is going shopping and doesn't have cash on her. You tell her you'll call one specific store after she's done and pay over the phone. She then asks for some cash for something else. Is she ungrateful? You keep looking at Israel as a dependent step-child instead of a partner. While the partnership may not be equal, it's most definitely a two-way relationship, with benefits to both sides. Once you come to terms with the fact that we gain more than we give, and stop looking at this money as aid and more as an investment, your perspective of the request will change.

[CountValentine]

I'm not following. The issue that article addresses is the complaint that we give more military aid to Israel than anywhere else. The article explains that while the dollar amount may be higher, it's balanced out by the reduced risk and expense of not having military personnel on the ground.

Doe it look at the other side of the coin? Other countries fight and have their own die along with American lives. Can Israel say the same?
When is the last time Israel has fought along side the US like many other countries have?

[CountValentine]

Someone made a comment that we derive economic benefit from the aid. You challenged that. People are responding to that challenge. That's it.

You mean like this one?

It's more like Bluebird. You pay for the gift card (Israel) with a cc (America), who has to send the money back to the cc via bluebird (buying American (military) equipment).

We lose economically in that situation.

[Lurker]

Doe it look at the other side of the coin? Other countries fight and have their own die along with American lives. Can Israel say the same?
When is the last time Israel has fought along side the US like many other countries have?

All the time. Your issue is that you're still stuck in the era of WWII and Vietnam, when boots on the ground was the only way wars were fought. Today, and for the last 20+ years, wars are won with tech, intelligence, and clandestine operations, all of which Israel contributes to US war efforts more than any other country. This is aside from the training US military personnel receive from the Israelis. Israel has its place, and uniforms on the ground isn't its value to us.

[aygart]

All the time. Your issue is that you're still stuck in the era of WWII and Vietnam, when boots on the ground was the only way wars were fought. Today, and for the last 20+ years, wars are won with tech, intelligence, and clandestine operations, all of which Israel contributes to US war efforts more than any other country. This is aside from the training US military personnel receive from the Israelis. Israel has its place, and uniforms on the ground isn't its value to us.

This is besides the way that Israeli boots can create issues in some Muslim countries and that is where the vast majority of recent wars have been.

[Lurker]

You mean like this one?We lose economically in that situation.

Says who? It's a loophole. We can't send them the actual military equipment without going through Senate approval, which gets tied up for eons with earmarks and pork. Aid we can send with much less rigamarole. So we send them money to buy the stuff from us. Now do the math differently. If we just sent them the arms directly, would that benefit us economically? The argument being made here is that sending $3.8B in military equipment is a good investment for a return of $50B in trade, plus tech, intelligence, and political advantages, all of which ultimately help us economically.

[aygart]

Bottom line is "Feelings don't care about your facts"

[Lurker]

@CountValentine your arguments here lead me to believe you agreed with Trump's arguments for cutting funding to the UN and NATO. Is that accurate?

[Yehuda57]

You mean like this one?We lose economically in that situation.

It's obviously more complicated and convoluted, and I'm not going to pretend to be an economy expert by any stretch, or that Israel doesn't end up better off economically in the deal. But there are funds earmarked for specific purposes, and these kinds of deals are ways to spend while still generating economic, political, and military benefits. The primary pushback to you is not who gets more out of the deal, but if it is just a "gift" from the USA, which it is not.

Israel also loses out in the deals. There are restrictions put on the equipment they buy. Israel went against those rules to bomb the Osirak reactor and got "punished" for it. And Israel did not preemptively strike before the Yom Kippur war to appease America, which cost them dearly. These are just two big ones among a litany of instances

[dasmo801]

No I don't agree with what you just said. I said I have no problem with giving them aid.
No they or any other country don't need to be good puppies. Just be grateful for what we give you.

I'm not sure I understand this whole "be grateful" argument. US aid (which in the case of Israel, I would classify as investment) is not usually given for altruistic reasons. The US has compelling interests in the welfare of other countries. Sometimes its to maintain a regional balance. Sometimes the US derives military, economic or even just a public relation benefit. If Israel is asking for more aid, they are making a case to the administration as to why that aid will be in the US interest. Bipartisan support for decades is not a product of asking nicely, and making a case for more has nothing to do with gratefulness.

[CountValentine]

@CountValentine your arguments here lead me to believe you agreed with Trump's arguments for cutting funding to the UN and NATO. Is that accurate?

I agree others need to pay there fair share. Instead of cutting our funding they need to increase what others put in.

[Lurker]

I agree others need to pay there fair share. Instead of cutting our funding they need to increase what others put in.

They will never pay what we pay. Would you say that the gratefulness should be in line with the imbalance?

[CountValentine]

The argument being made here is that sending $3.8B in military equipment is a good investment for a return of $50B in trade, plus tech, intelligence, and political advantages, all of which ultimately help us economically.

I get the argument but disagree with it. Lets take trade. That has nothing to do with aid. We trade with many countries we don't give aid to. Also we are a net loser with Israel on trade so that is a terrible point you keep trying to make.

It is funny (not really) this debate about what we get for our money is one sided here. Can that be because you all have a special connection to Israel and not looking at this objectively? 

[Lurker]

I get the argument but disagree with it. Lets take trade. That has nothing to do with aid. We trade with many countries we don't give aid to. Also we are a net loser with Israel on trade so that is a terrible point you keep trying to make.

It is funny (not really) this debate about what we get for our money is one sided here. Can that be because you all have a special connection to Israel and not looking at this objectively?

Source that we are a net loser on trade? This is the basis for the entire argument. I don't believe that's true.

Am I biased towards Israel? Absolutely. But I'd like to think that the data I've shown backs up my conclusions, bias notwithstanding.

[CountValentine]

Source that we are a net loser on trade? This is the basis for the entire argument. I don't believe that's true.

Am I biased towards Israel? Absolutely. But I'd like to think that the data I've shown backs up my conclusions, bias notwithstanding.

Am I reading this wrong?
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5081.html

[CountValentine]

All the time. Your issue is that you're still stuck in the era of WWII and Vietnam, when boots on the ground was the only way wars were fought. Today, and for the last 20+ years, wars are won with tech, intelligence, and clandestine operations, all of which Israel contributes to US war efforts more than any other country. This is aside from the training US military personnel receive from the Israelis. Israel has its place, and uniforms on the ground isn't its value to us.

All the time what? You need boots on the ground even in todays climate. Americans die every year. Where is Israel? Are they fighting right along us putting their son's and daughters at risk? Are their lives worth more than American lives. What economic value you want to put on an American life?

[Yehuda57]

All the time what? You need boots on the ground even in todays climate. Americans die every year. Where is Israel? Are they fighting right along us putting their son's and daughters at risk? Are their lives worth more than American lives. What economic value you want to put on an American life?

You do know that Israel offered boots on the ground for numerous wars and America refused (for numerous reasons), right?

[Yehuda57]

You do know that Israel offered boots on the ground for numerous wars and America refused (for numerous reasons), right?

For example

This is besides the way that Israeli boots can create issues in some Muslim countries and that is where the vast majority of recent wars have been.

Even Jewish soldiers in the US forces created an issue:
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1238300/jewish/The-Dog-Tag-Dilemma.htm

[CountValentine]

You do know that Israel offered boots on the ground for numerous wars and America refused (for numerous reasons), right?

Of course. That goes to my other point that our support of Israel brings us additional hate. If Israel helped us with any on the wars in the ME we would be hated more if that is possible.

Do we have any bases in Israel? Asking because I don't know.