War in Israel

[Lurker]

Am I reading this wrong?
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5081.html

No. You're right - we do operate as a net loser on trade of goods with Israel. Of the 20 countries we have a trade deficit with, Israel is the 3rd smallest deficit. I think that deficit includes the $3.8B of arms we gave them money to buy. I'm not 100% sure how it works exactly, but I think these numbers are purely goods imported and exported, and don't include goods American companies develop in those countries. So IBM's chips, for example, would be considered a US export when IBM sells them, but not an Israeli export to the US, even though the tech is made in Israel.

The point is, Israel is not a charity case, and we benefit from our relationship with them. They are our partners, not the ungrateful step-child we keep having to put through rehab.

[CountValentine]

The point is, Israel is not a charity case, and we benefit from our relationship with them. They are our partners, not the ungrateful step-child we keep having to put through rehab.

I get your point but will state again that I disagree. I can show your other points to be misguided but don't feel like going another 36 pages. 

[Lurker]

All the time what? You need boots on the ground even in todays climate. Americans die every year. Where is Israel? Are they fighting right along us putting their son's and daughters at risk? Are their lives worth more than American lives. What economic value you want to put on an American life?

Boots on the ground doesn't just mean in uniform. Israeli intelligence operatives and black-ops units are on the ground with their US counterparts all the time. Yes, they are putting their sons and daughters at risk, oftentimes to save US lives, both at home and on foreign soil.

In addition to the points being made that Israeli uniforms may cause more tensions in some countries, pulling Israeli troops out of Israel and putting them on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan puts the entire region at risk and hurts the US strategically. Do you really think that Israel would ever turn down a US request for troops? Most of the countries who have sent soldiers to fight alongside us have done exactly that.

[TimT]

Do we have any bases in Israel ?

Yes. It’s known as “Israel”, our reliable eyes & ears in the Mideast.

[Lurker]

That goes to my other point that our support of Israel brings us additional hate.

So do our stances on race, gender, sexuality, and a myriad of other things. Everything has a cost.

[CountValentine]

Yes. It’s known as “Israel”, our reliable eyes & ears in the Mideast.

The answer would then be no. No need for the pretzel.

[CountValentine]

So do our stances on race, gender, sexuality, and a myriad of other things. Everything has a cost.

Of course. So you finally agree our support does bring extra hate with it?
I will say it again. The extra hate we receive is a price we are willing to pay. The aid we give should be given.

This might help explain it. I give my son 100k to start a business. He comes back and wants 10k more. I look at it as a partnership because he is family but in reality he is being ungrateful when he can really use his own money.

[aygart]

This might help explain it. I give my son 100k to start a business. He comes back and wants 10k more. I look at it as a partnership because he is family but in reality he is being ungrateful when if he can really use his own money.

FTFY?

[TimT]

The answer would then be no.

Incorrect. Dimona Radar Facility

ETA Our military is also constantly all over Israel conducting joint military exercises.

[dasmo801]

This might help explain it. I give my son 100k to start a business. He comes back and wants 10k more. I look at it as a partnership because he is family but in reality he is being ungrateful when he can really use his own money.

How about this, I invested $10,000 in my friends business. Business flourished, my ROI was great. Truly a win-win. Now that very same friend has the nerve to come back to me and ask me to invest another $10,000 in his next venture.

[Lurker]

Of course. So you finally agree our support does bring extra hate with it?
I will say it again. The extra hate we receive is a price we are willing to pay. The aid we give should be given.

No one disputes it brings "extra" hate, we just don't think it brings new hate or that the amount of hate changes anything for the US on a practical level.

This might help explain it. I give my son 100k to start a business. He comes back and wants 10k more. I look at it as a partnership because he is family but in reality he is being ungrateful when he can really use his own money.

Ah. Now let's say your son started a business and brought you on as a minority partner. Say he invested $10M and you bought in for $100k. The business had unexpected repair expenses to the tune of $100k, and he asks you for an extra $1k to help cover things. Is he ungrateful?

Israel's GDP is $395B. The US gives them $3.8B in military equipment under the guise of "aid." We see it as a good investment to have a finger in that particular pie. Things happen, damage occurs, and Israel says to the US, "We know you see this as a worthwhile investment. Can you please throw us an extra few million dollars to help get things back to the way they need to be?"

You, and the US, can say no. It's a request, not a demand. Your son, and Israel, know that the investment is valued, so when they need extra help, they turn to their investors and ask for more money. The request isn't done in a disrespectful way, nor is it attached to threats or expectations or BS excuses. It's just a request.

You know what the biggest problem with this analogy is? Israel is not your son. The US didn't birth it and didn't raise it. Israel is its own country. The US has been a great friend, investor, benefactor, defender, and ally. This hasn't been altruistic, as US interests have always been foremost for us, but it has been very appreciated and highly valued by Israel. Israel does not make requests of money from the US as a dependent in desperate need of a handout, but as an independent entity, turning to a friend, investor, and benefactor for additional investment in order to speed up the recovery process after unfortunate circumstances.

[CountValentine]

How about this for an example:

[Lurker]

How about this for an example:

You made a claim that the request was ungrateful, and you attempted to explain it by using a faulty premise (a misrepresentation of the nature of the relationship). Now, instead of addressing why your view of the relationship is more correct than others, you use the hamster to deflect. If you can explain why the nature of the US/Israel relationship is more like your opinion than mine, we won't have to go around in circles.

[aygart]

You made a claim that the request was ungrateful, and you attempted to explain it by using a faulty premise (a misrepresentation of the nature of the relationship). Now, instead of addressing why your view of the relationship is more correct than others, you use the hamster to deflect. If you can explain why the nature of the US/Israel relationship is more like your opinion than mine, we won't have to go around in circles.

Bottom line is "Feelings don't care about your facts"

[CountValentine]

You made a claim that the request was ungrateful, and you attempted to explain it by using a faulty premise (a misrepresentation of the nature of the relationship). Now, instead of addressing why your view of the relationship is more correct than others, you use the hamster to deflect. If you can explain why the nature of the US/Israel relationship is more like your opinion than mine, we won't have to go around in circles.

I explained it numerous different ways. You refuse to accept any of them and that is fine.
Just look at economic benefit. We lose without giving them aid. We would be better off economic wise if we didn't trade at all with Israel. The same could be said about many countries we trade with.

You keep bringing in things there is no way to measure if we get a net benefit or not.

[Lurker]

I explained it numerous different ways. You refuse to accept any of them and that is fine.
Just look at economic benefit. We lose without giving them aid. We would be better off economic wise if we didn't trade at all with Israel. The same could be said about many countries we trade with.

You came to that conclusion based on a $7B trade deficit? You're right. We aren't gonna get anywhere here. I'm sorry you were insulted by Israel's ungratefulness.

[zh cohen]

Just look at economic benefit. We lose without giving them aid. We would be better off economic wise if we didn't trade at all with Israel. The same could be said about many countries we trade with.

That's a very Trumpian view of trade. The fact that we import more from a country than we export to them does not mean that we would be better off economics wise if we cut off trade completely.

[CountValentine]

That's a very Trumpian view of trade. The fact that we import more from a country than we export to them does not mean that we would be better off economics wise if we cut off trade completely.

Then we can get into 106 pages of why/why not we are better off. KISS!!! We are losing wealth because of our trade deficit. It is simple math but everyone wants to make pretzels.

[Lurker]

Then we can get into 106 pages of why/why not we are better off. KISS!!! We are losing wealth because of our trade deficit. It is simple math but everyone wants to make pretzels.

Economics isn't simple math. If it was, we would have shuttered USPS a long time ago.

[CountValentine]

Economics isn't simple math. If it was, we would have shuttered USPS a long time ago.

You are on a roll and again wrong. USPS provides a service. That is why it is still around.