Author Topic: War in Israel (Read 159390 times)

yelped · « **Reply #280 on:** May 11, 2021, 11:56:58 AM »

https://honestreporting.com/new-york-times-washington-post-bbc-etc-blame-israel-for-hamas-war-crimes/

Lurker · « **Reply #281 on:** May 11, 2021, 11:57:23 AM »

Quote from: CountValentine on May 11, 2021, 11:53:10 AM

I am not sure you are understanding the rest of the world. Taking out military targets to neutralize current threats is the proper way to go and supported.
Will the haters jump on the part if civilians get killed, yes.

What makes someone a civilian? Do they lose that status by providing aid to the terrorists and contributing to the threat?

joe1234 · « **Reply #282 on:** May 11, 2021, 11:57:29 AM »

Quote from: PlatinumGuy on May 11, 2021, 11:55:36 AM

We established that if the victim can be saved without shooting the perp in the head, it is full blown murder to shoot the perp in the head.

Of course if the victim cannot be saved, you cannot do anything to the perp. Who told you otherwise?

that is the halacha... ask your rov... a roidef is allowed to be killed... im not 100% sure its black and white in shulchan aruch... but if you learn the sugyos beiyun... it should be clear that is the approach of the gedoilei achronim... i can try to get a clear mekor.

yelped · « **Reply #283 on:** May 11, 2021, 11:58:31 AM »

Quote from: PlatinumGuy on May 11, 2021, 11:46:10 AM

They walked out of Gaza unilaterally but block any attempt by Gaza to establish an independent state. The United Nations continue to consider Israel the occupying power in the territory due to Israel's control of Gaza's airspace and coastline

Come on. Are you really bringing proof from what the UN says?? Bring more quotes from what the UN says.

The reason they're under blockade by Israel AND Egypt is because they try to harm Israel and Egypt. If they wouldn't they would be able to live in peace independently.

Do you seriously not know this?

PlatinumGuy · « **Reply #284 on:** May 11, 2021, 11:58:59 AM »

Quote from: joe1234 on May 11, 2021, 11:57:29 AM

that is the halacha... ask your rov... a roidef is allowed to be killed...

I just posted the Halacha itself, which is the opposite. A roidef can only be killed in self defense.

avromie7 · « **Reply #285 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:00:36 PM »

Quote from: CountValentine on May 11, 2021, 11:45:52 AM

I am not a terror sympathizer so can you explain to me what shooting into 3mm people accomplishes besides turning the world against you?

This something Hamas does regularly, but somehow it doesn't turn the world against them.

Quote from: PlatinumGuy on May 11, 2021, 11:46:10 AM

They walked out of Gaza unilaterally but block any attempt by Gaza to establish an independent state. The United Nations continue to consider Israel the occupying power in the territory due to Israel's control of Gaza's airspace and coastline

Israel controls the air and coast as a tool in their fight against terrorism. If all they wanted was to live in piece and not build up an arsenal of rockets and other weapons of war with the express intent to kill as many jews as possible, Israel would have no problem with them keeping full control.

CountValentine · « **Reply #286 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:01:33 PM »

Quote from: Lurker on May 11, 2021, 11:57:23 AM

What makes someone a civilian? Do they lose that status by providing aid to the terrorists and contributing to the threat?

Not going to go there as this is been taken to OT as it is.

CountValentine · « **Reply #287 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:04:45 PM »

Quote from: avromie7 on May 11, 2021, 12:00:36 PM

This something Hamas does regularly, but somehow it doesn't turn the world against them.

It (the attacks) is condemned by the world.
The amount of lives lost is more important than the amount of rockets.

Lurker · « **Reply #288 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:05:58 PM »

Quote from: CountValentine on May 11, 2021, 12:01:33 PM

Not going to go there as this is been taken to OT as it is.

Here's where I'll leave it: if you want to claim that the world doesn't have an issue with Israel defending itself by neutralizing the threat, no problem. But if you want to convince anyone that this claim has a shred of validity to it, you're going to need to show sources that back it up. you're going to find a tough time arguing against countless UN resolutions and official government statements and condemnations to the contrary.

PlatinumGuy · « **Reply #289 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:06:43 PM »

Quote from: yelped on May 11, 2021, 11:58:31 AM

Come on. Are you really bringing proof from what the UN says?? Bring more quotes from what the UN says.

The reason they're under blockade by Israel AND Egypt is because they try to harm Israel and Egypt. If they wouldn't they would be able to live in peace independently.

Do you seriously not know this?

If Israel doesn't control Gaza, who prevents them from forming a country, with an airport and everything?

joe1234 · « **Reply #290 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:07:57 PM »

Quote from: PlatinumGuy on May 11, 2021, 11:58:59 AM

I just posted the Halacha itself, which is the opposite. A roidef can only be killed in self defense.

I was only arguing in the 2nd case, to which you hadn't posted anything...

Lurker · « **Reply #291 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:08:28 PM »

Quote from: PlatinumGuy on May 11, 2021, 12:06:43 PM

If Israel doesn't control Gaza, who prevents them from forming a country, with an airport and everything?

The rest of the world. If everyone besides Israel wanted Gaza to be an independent country, it would happen in a heartbeat. Israel doesn't hold that much power on the world stage.

yelped · « **Reply #292 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:09:06 PM »

Quote from: PlatinumGuy on May 11, 2021, 12:06:43 PM

If Israel doesn't control Gaza, who prevents them from forming a country, with an airport and everything?

The fact that they only seek to cause harm to Israel. If they would live in peace, they would be allowed to have their own state. But since their overarching goal is to destroy Israel, no same person would allow them to build a state with that clearly stated goal.

I'm not sure how you do not see this in your research when Hamas will tell that to you openly. It's in their charter, too (not that it matters).

CountValentine · « **Reply #293 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:09:22 PM »

Quote from: Lurker on May 11, 2021, 12:05:58 PM

Here's where I'll leave it: if you want to claim that the world doesn't have an issue with Israel defending itself by neutralizing the threat, no problem. But if you want to convince anyone that this claim has a shred of validity to it, you're going to need to show sources that back it up. you're going to find a tough time arguing against countless UN resolutions and official government statements and condemnations to the contrary.

Can you give me a link to Israel being condemned for taking out a military target after it was attacked?

PlatinumGuy · « **Reply #294 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:09:32 PM »

Quote from: avromie7 on May 11, 2021, 12:00:36 PM

Israel controls the air and coast as a tool in their fight against terrorism. If all they wanted was to live in piece and not build up an arsenal of rockets and other weapons of war with the express intent to kill as many jews as possible, Israel would have no problem with them keeping full control.

They have no express intent of killing as many Jews as possible. You can't have it both ways. It's either under Israeli control, or Israel has no right to police them.

Quote from: Lurker on May 11, 2021, 12:08:28 PM

The rest of the world. If everyone besides Israel wanted Gaza to be an independent country, it would happen in a heartbeat. Israel doesn't hold that much power on the world stage.

The US vetoed Palestinian state at Israel's request. If Israel wouldn't object, Gaza would be a self governing country.

PlatinumGuy · « **Reply #295 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:10:33 PM »

Quote from: yelped on May 11, 2021, 12:09:06 PM

The fact that they only seek to cause harm to Israel. If they would live in peace, they would be allowed to have their own state. But since their overarching goal is to destroy Israel, no same person would allow them to build a state with that clearly stated goal.

I'm not sure how you do not see this in your research when Hamas will tell that to you openly. It's in their charter, too (not that it matters).

I never said Israel should let them form a state. I said by preventing them from forming a State, Israel is de facto in control, however you want to classify it.

The US can't walk out of Texas, claim it is no longer under their control, but maintain a full blown blockade and prevent ships and planes from entering.

CountValentine · « **Reply #296 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:11:47 PM »

Quote from: Lurker on May 11, 2021, 12:08:28 PM

Israel doesn't hold that much power on the world stage.

...but it is friends with the most powerful country on the world stage. Don't underestimate that value.

avromie7 · « **Reply #297 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:12:40 PM »

Quote from: CountValentine on May 11, 2021, 12:04:45 PM

It (the attacks) is condemned by the world.

Sometimes mildly, very often they are excused. This is how Israel is the target of the majority of UN resolutions while Hamas is the target of none.

Quote from: CountValentine on May 11, 2021, 12:04:45 PM

The amount of lives lost is more important than the amount of rockets.

This is the problem. Israel has a right to live in peace without rocket attacks. How many perpetrators (and human shields) die in their response to these attacks should be irrelevant, especially since Israel puts their own people at risk (and many have died) for the sake of saving these human shields.

PlatinumGuy · « **Reply #298 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:13:09 PM »

Quote from: joe1234 on May 11, 2021, 12:07:57 PM

I was only arguing in the 2nd case, to which you hadn't posted anything...

Quote

יא שצונו להציל הנרדף אפילו בנפשו של רודף, כלומר שאנו מצווים להרוג הרודף אם לא נוכל להציל הנרדף אלא בנפש הרודף

https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/ספר_המצוות_עשה_רמז

Roidef is 100% self defense. There is zero liberty to kill them, only an obligation to save the victim even at the expense of killing the roidef.

yelped · « **Reply #299 on:** May 11, 2021, 12:14:46 PM »

Quote from: PlatinumGuy on May 11, 2021, 12:09:32 PM

They have no express intent of killing as many Jews as possible. You can't have it both ways. It's either under Israeli control, or Israel has no right to police them. The US vetoed Palestinian state at Israel's request. If Israel wouldn't object, Gaza would be a self governing country.

Huh? What in the world are you smoking? They have no express intent to kill all Jews? Were you born yesterday?