War in Israel

[PlatinumGuy]

137 rockets fired within 5 minutes (to overwhelm and evade iron dome).

Unrelenting barrage on Ashkelon for more than 1h, military directs everybody to remain in bomb shelters until further notice.

Good thing most of them are following conventional wisdom and not @m65's nonsense. 

[Happyguy]

The Chazon Ish and R' Shach.
It depends on the individual circumstances as it won't have an impact on the Klal. I definitely wouldn't advocate for it with the same zeal as the zionists (religious and not religious).

Can you find me a source please?

[PlatinumGuy]

ISRAEL: BREAKING: Two Israeli’s were killed, two more were seriously hurt after a rocket fired from Gaza hit a residential building in the city of Ashkelon.

 

*פראמדיק מד"א ישראל לוגסי סיפר:* "כשהגענו למקום ראינו מבנה חד קומתי שנפגע ובתוכו היו 2 נשים שנפגעו באורח קשה. חילצנו אלינו מהבניין אישה כבת 80 שסבלה מפגיעה רב מערכתית קשה מאוד, הענקנו לה טיפול רפואי מציל חיים שכלל הנחת חסמי עורקים ועצירת דימומים ופינינו אותה במצב קשה ולא יציב לבית החולים. אישה נוספת שנפגעה באורח אנוש מטופלת בזירה."

זק״א: עדכון לאשקלון, נקבע מותם של שני נפגעים. צוות זק״א אשקלון מטפלים בכבוד המת בזירות הקשות.

Two separate scenes.

[PlatinumGuy]

Can you find me a source please?

Moving to new thread for political discussion.

[Happyguy]

Source for what?

For me and my rebbeim, if it would be hypothetically be feasible for all Jews in Israel to emigrate to the US (or anyplace safe), it would indeed be preferable. Jewish sovereignty of Israel isn't a value to us at all, certainly not one that justifies the price of 50k dead Jews (and counting). We do accept it is unfeasible to leave Israel and so the Israeli state was probably the safest option given the circumstances.

[Ergel]

For me and my rebbeim, if it would be hypothetically be feasible for all Jews in Israel to emigrate to the US (or anyplace safe), it would indeed be preferable. Jewish sovereignty of Israel isn't a value to us at all, certainly not one that justifies the price of 50k dead Jews (and counting). We do accept it is unfeasible to leave Israel and so the Israeli state was probably the safest option given the circumstances.

So Herzl was right and we should have gone to Uganda? Do you honestly believe this?

[drosenberg88429]

137 rockets fired within 5 minutes (to overwhelm and evade iron dome).

Unrelenting barrage on Ashkelon for more than 1h

ימח שמם וזכרם

[PlatinumGuy]

https://twitter.com/tallevram/status/1392080057213104128

https://twitter.com/amirbohbot/status/1391970451623141385

https://twitter.com/TsahiDaboush/status/1392088459142107136

https://twitter.com/lennybendavid/status/1392103716585680901

[Kobe Bryant]

IDF and Shin Bet just announced killing commander of Islamic Jihad's rocket force.

[NTorch]

Agreed - the height of suicide bombings was during the post-Oslo withdrawal period.

[CountValentine]

The truth hurts.

This is always the case when one refuses to open their eyes.

What I find interesting about this discussion is you provide insight to both sides no matter how it falls. Others only provide one side. Very easy to tell who has their eyes open and who has their head buried in the sand.

[PlatinumGuy]

Agreed - the height of suicide bombings was during the post-Oslo withdrawal period.

Urban myth.

The Oslo accords were signed in 1993. The height of terrorist attacks were 2001 (182 killed), 2002 (307 killed), and 2003 (156 killed), all in the second intifada that Israeli provocations caused (or at least contributed significantly to), notably Sharon's כוחי ועוצם ידי visit to Temple Mount, and ended in the aftermath of חומת מגן when Israel managed to establish a high quality intelligence network and built the separation wall.

The Oslo accords were a huge success with the Palestinian Authority preventing terrorist attacks and rescuing Israelis on a daily basis. From 1996 to 1993 there were more than 200 Jews killed every year by Arabs (From 1948 more than 80 every year).

In the last 5 years, it is under 100 every year for the first time since 1966.

[Lurker]

Ultimately, my guess at this point is that Hamas decided to shoot today to win popular support by portraying themselves as protectors of Al Aqsa, and took a calculated gamble that they'll be able to end this round without catastrophic results.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-thinks-israel-will-want-to-end-this-conflict-quickly-it-could-be-wrong/

There seems to be a consensus on the back of exit strategy for Hamas. Channel 12 is reporting Hamas already requested a ceasefire and Israel refused.

[PlatinumGuy]

This is always the case when one refuses to open their eyes.

What I find interesting about this discussion is you provide insight to both sides no matter how it falls. Others only provide one side. Very easy to tell who has their eyes open and who has their head buried in the sand.

Thank you. I was taught to always question my natural first impression and accept that my mind is crooked but the truth is straight, and I have to bend my mind to conform with reality, resisting the natural urge to attempt to explain reality according to my preconceptions.

I'll often approach something and say 'how do I know, maybe it's the exact opposite'? And to be sure one way or the other, you have to make then best argument for each side to evaluate them accurately.

[Lurker]

This is always the case when one refuses to open their eyes.

What I find interesting about this discussion is you provide insight to both sides no matter how it falls. Others only provide one side. Very easy to tell who has their eyes open and who has their head buried in the sand.

Understand that everything about this conflict is personal and emotional, on both sides. Objectivity isn't possible for most under those circumstances, and isn't necessarily seen as something to even aspire to. Facts and objectivity ultimately won't solve anything here.

[PlatinumGuy]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-thinks-israel-will-want-to-end-this-conflict-quickly-it-could-be-wrong/

There seems to be a consensus on the back of exit strategy for Hamas. Channel 12 is reporting Hamas already requested a ceasefire and Israel refused.

If Hamas really wanted it to end, they would just stop launching rockets. Here is my previous take on guessing what their motivations are.

DM Gantz approves IDF's request to mobilize 5,000 reservists.

Gantz & Bibbi have strong political incentive to prolong the conflict, and Hamas probably wants it to end while they can claim they defended Al Aqsa and before consequences are even more severe for their organization and the population they control (on the other hand provoking Israel to inflict further damage helps Hamas win financial and political support).

In the short term, the quicker it dies down the less Jews will be hurt, but in the long term inadequate retailation and lack of deterrent may embolden the enemy to have a looser finger on the trigger while missiles and arms can be upgraded. It's an impossible decision where no human can strike the perfect balance (much less uninformed pundits) - something to think about when davening הָשִׁיבָה שׁוֹפְטֵינוּ כְּבָרִאשׁוֹנָה, וְיוֹעֲצֵינוּ כְּבַתְּחִלָּה, - we are supposed to have prophets and אורים ותומים to consult with in such situations. 

Personally, it's hard to see this subsiding without infantry entering Gaza, which tends to carry the gravest price.

[PlatinumGuy]

Understand that everything about this conflict is personal and emotional, on both sides. Objectivity isn't possible for most under those circumstances, and isn't necessarily seen as something to even aspire to. Facts and objectivity ultimately won't solve anything here.

Very true. In most conflicts who is right and who is wrong has very little relevance. Most of them both are wrong. Think of a fractured marriage. It doesn't matter how it started, because there's nothing that can be done about it. What matter is if and how it can be reconciled.

To me personally, the truth is always valuable in its own merit (except in times when keeping it hidden can be justified for a greater good).

[CountValentine]

Understand that everything about this conflict is personal and emotional, on both sides. Objectivity isn't possible for most under those circumstances, and isn't necessarily seen as something to even aspire to.

I understand fully why most have certain views.
This is why for the most part I don't give my thoughts/view on the situation.

Facts and objectivity ultimately won't solve anything here.

Then it seems it will never be solved.

[Lurker]

Then it seems it will never be solved.

This is what the rest of the world doesn't get. There is no solution to this problem. It's chronic. There is only management and minimizing the fallout.

[CountValentine]

This is what the rest of the world doesn't get. There is no solution to this problem. It's chronic. There is only management and minimizing the fallout.

Every problem has a solution. Getting opposite sides to see that is the goal.