Author Topic: War in Israel  (Read 154847 times)

Online CountValentine

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #220 on: May 11, 2021, 10:52:23 AM »
And I don't want @CountValentine to walk away seeing @PlatinumGuy post a few view points from both sides and assume what he is saying is the truth.
I don't take anything as the truth. I have learned the hard way not to believe any individual that only puts forth one side of the argument on complex issues. It is not that they are liars but are not capable or don't want to understand both sides for whatever reasons.

Example: Gun issue. 
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #221 on: May 11, 2021, 10:54:35 AM »
you just picked a specific value that you disagree with him on. that has nothing to do with the fact that in general he provides insight on both sides, which is definitely usually a pretty good sign that the person is being more truthful. obviously its not full proof but its definitely a huge plus...
as to the value of living in Israel, I don't think its an argument about just the value of living there as much as it is a disagreement about the value of living in Israel vs 1 Jewish life...

Thank you. I do represent the less popular side usually, but that's because there's no point fighting for the popular side unless I have something unique to contribute.

I would clarify that there are two distinct debates about living in Israel - from an individual perspective, it is almost universally agreed upon that there is a commandment to be in Israel. The major debate is about the public perspective. There is a huge body of thought that it is critical for Jews to be sovereigns of (all of) Israel. Herzl went a step further and said it is morally critical for Jews to have their own country even if it isn't in Israel.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online CountValentine

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #222 on: May 11, 2021, 10:57:17 AM »
I eta'd to ask:

So ask yourself. Is the person defending the guy who broke in to your home really more honest, just because he says it's not your home? Could you imagine this happening in your own home, for real...
Not sure I understand your question. Defending the guy how?
Lets take your example and say the guy who broke in was shot in the back while leaving. If you can't understand both narrative's that will come out of this then you have your head buried in the sand.
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #223 on: May 11, 2021, 10:57:35 AM »
...and many more are based on reality but that is for another thread.
I didn't want to force it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yelped

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #224 on: May 11, 2021, 10:58:23 AM »
@PlatinumGuy You have a lot of points that should be discussed (I don't agree with many, but don't have the time and capacity now), but why do you keep repeating that the second intifada was started by Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount when Fatah themselves admitted it was premeditated.

https://honestreporting.com/the-second-intifada-israeli-society-terrorized/

Btw, many more info on that site to refute some of your claims. Obviously, this is a complicated situation, but not everything has moral equivalence.

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #225 on: May 11, 2021, 11:00:00 AM »
and my positions in this thread always stood up to scrutiny without fail.
Which would you consider to have been scrutinized?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #226 on: May 11, 2021, 11:02:23 AM »
You are only proving the point, the major withdrawals were in the end of 1994, 1997 and 1998. In the period between 1987-1993, only 200 Israelis total were killed.

And where is the mention of Ehud Barak offering a state on 95% of the West Bank to Arafat, which immediately preceded the 2001-2003 massive wave of suicide bombings when Arafat said no?
200 civilians + around 1500 soldiers and the number is exactly the same for the 6 year period following 1993.

The second intifada started with a major riot on Sep 28 2000 on the spot while Sharon was needlessly antagonizing the Arabs in the Temple Mount. 20 policemen were injured there that day and it went on for several days across Israel.

Saying they attacked Israel because of a political concession Barak promised them is highly speculative and hard to piece together logically.

If you look for it you can find major concessions Israel made to Arabs almost every year since 1948, including under Trump and Netanyahu.
The green line with minor changes for security and the larger settlement blocs. Israel has no problem evicting settlements when necessary.

It is anything but speculative:

Quote
The Second Intifada (Arabic: الانتفاضة الثانية‎ Al-Intifada al-Thaniya; Hebrew: האינתיפאדה השנייה‎ Ha-Intifāda ha-Shniya), also known as the Al-Aqsa Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة الأقصى‎ Intifāḍat al-ʾAqṣā),[12] was a Palestinian uprising against Israel.[12] The general triggers for the violence were proposed as the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit to reach final agreement on the Israeli-Palestinian peace process in July 2000.[13] The violence started in September 2000, after Ariel Sharon made a highly provocative visit to the Temple Mount.[13] The visit itself was peaceful, but, as anticipated, it sparked protests and riots which the Israeli police put down with rubber bullets and tear gas.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada

Quote
The call from Bill Clinton came hours after the publication in The New York Times of Deborah Sontag’s “revisionist” article (“Quest for Middle East Peace: How and Why It Failed,” July 26, 2001) on the Israeli–Palestinian peace process. Ehud Barak, Israel’s former prime minister, on vacation, was swimming in a cove in Sardinia. Clinton said (according to Barak):

What the hell is this? Why is she turning the mistakes we [i.e., the US and Israel] made into the essence? The true story of Camp David was that for the first time in the history of the conflict the American president put on the table a proposal, based on UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, very close to the Palestinian demands, and Arafat refused even to accept it as a basis for negotiations, walked out of the room, and deliberately turned to terrorism. That’s the real story—all the rest is gossip.

Clinton was speaking of the two-week-long July 2000 Camp David conference that he had organized and mediated and its failure, and the eruption at the end of September of the Palestinian intifada, or campaign of anti-Israeli violence, which has continued ever since and which currently plagues the Middle East, with no end in sight. Midway in the conference, apparently on July 18, Clinton had “slowly”—to avoid misunderstanding—read out to Arafat a document, endorsed in advance by Barak, outlining the main points of a future settlement. The proposals included the establishment of a demilitarized Palestinian state on some 92 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip, with some territorial compensation for the Palestinians from pre-1967 Israeli territory; the dismantling of most of the settlements and the concentration of the bulk of the settlers inside the 8 percent of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel; the establishment of the Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem, in which some Arab neighborhoods would become sovereign Palestinian territory and others would enjoy “functional autonomy”; Palestinian sovereignty over half the Old City of Jerusalem (the Muslim and Christian quarters) and “custodianship,” though not sovereignty, over the Temple Mount; a return of refugees to the prospective Palestinian state though with no “right of return” to Israel proper; and the organization by the international community of a massive aid program to facilitate the refugees’ rehabilitation.

Arafat said “No.” Clinton, enraged, banged on the table and said: “You are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe.” A formal Palestinian rejection of the proposals reached the Americans the next day. The summit sputtered on for a few days more but to all intents and purposes it was over
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2002/06/13/camp-david-and-after-an-exchange-1-an-interview-wi/

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #227 on: May 11, 2021, 11:06:12 AM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/france-urges-israel-to-use-proportionate-force-over-gaza/

Quote
The use of force by Israel must be “proportionate” in response to rockets fired by the Hamas terror group following several nights of violence in Jerusalem, a French minister says.

“Quite clearly, we call for a proportionate use of force by the Israeli authorities,” deputy foreign minister Jean-Baptiste Lemoyne tells French lawmakers.

For possibly the first time in my life, I agree with the French. We should fire the exact same amount of rockets indiscriminately into their most populated areas. We should also send incendiary balloons floating over the border.
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #228 on: May 11, 2021, 11:10:49 AM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/france-urges-israel-to-use-proportionate-force-over-gaza/

For possibly the first time in my life, I agree with the French. We should fire the exact same amount of rockets indiscriminately into their most populated areas. We should also send incendiary balloons floating over the border.
...and if the results were the same that would be "proportionate". Now when you have 100 to 1 civilian casualties on one side vs the other don't come crying why the world is against one side.
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #229 on: May 11, 2021, 11:11:36 AM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/france-urges-israel-to-use-proportionate-force-over-gaza/

For possibly the first time in my life, I agree with the French. We should fire the exact same amount of rockets indiscriminately into their most populated areas. We should also send incendiary balloons floating over the border.

I really want to hit like, but I can't endorse it.  :(

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #230 on: May 11, 2021, 11:12:01 AM »
...and if the results were the same that would be "proportionate". Now when you have 100 to 1 civilian casualties on one side vs the other don't come crying why the world is against one side.

Since when do the results need to be the same? If someone tries to shoot you, but he's a bad shot, does that mean you have to miss when you shoot back at him?
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #231 on: May 11, 2021, 11:13:17 AM »
@PlatinumGuy You have a lot of points that should be discussed (I don't agree with many, but don't have the time and capacity now), but why do you keep repeating that the second intifada was started by Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount when Fatah themselves admitted it was premeditated.

https://honestreporting.com/the-second-intifada-israeli-society-terrorized/

Btw, many more info on that site to refute some of your claims. Obviously, this is a complicated situation, but not everything has moral equivalence.
It literally broke out at the Temple Mount - 20 policemen were injured while Sharon was there. That's the baseline assumption. The burden of proof is on claims that it was premeditated by Arafat. The head of the Israeli Shin Bet internal security service claims Arafat wasn't behind the intifada. https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.1297097

Arafat didn't release terrorists he had in jail until Feb 11 2001, more than 4 months after the intifada started
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #232 on: May 11, 2021, 11:13:55 AM »
Since when do the results need to be the same? If someone tries to shoot you, but he's a bad shot, does that mean you have to miss when you shoot back at him?
Since when can you shoot back at somebody just because they tried and failed to shoot at you?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #233 on: May 11, 2021, 11:14:09 AM »
I really want to hit like, but I can't endorse it.  :(

I'm with you. Ultimately, people dying is not something we want to see. My commentary was more on the world's rhetoric regarding "proportional response."
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #234 on: May 11, 2021, 11:14:50 AM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/france-urges-israel-to-use-proportionate-force-over-gaza/

For possibly the first time in my life, I agree with the French. We should fire the exact same amount of rockets indiscriminately into their most populated areas. We should also send incendiary balloons floating over the border.
It would have less effect than eradicating the actual infrastructure. They're happy to die.
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #235 on: May 11, 2021, 11:15:20 AM »
...and if the results were the same that would be "proportionate". Now when you have 100 to 1 civilian casualties on one side vs the other don't come crying why the world is against one side.

I disagree with you, THANK GOD that it's only 2 civilian on Israeli side.

Do not forget the fact, THEY start sending hundred of rockets on Israeli civilization, and as a result we start to respond.

And btw I don't believe there numbers of dead. They are know to lie about it, to change the public opinion.

Check this video : https://streamable.com/amcvo2

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #236 on: May 11, 2021, 11:15:31 AM »
Since when can you shoot back at somebody just because they tried and failed to shoot at you?

I think both the Count and I agree that if someone comes into your house shooting at you, you can shoot back at him. His aim was off this time? So what? What if his aim is better next time?
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #237 on: May 11, 2021, 11:16:04 AM »
It would have less effect than eradicating the actual infrastructure. They're happy to die.
I'm with you. Ultimately, people dying is not something we want to see. My commentary was more on the world's rhetoric regarding "proportional response."
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #238 on: May 11, 2021, 11:16:19 AM »
Since when do the results need to be the same? If someone tries to shoot you, but he's a bad shot, does that mean you have to miss when you shoot back at him?
No.
You seem to miss the point. You try and shoot me and miss. Then hours or days later I shoot back and kill you and your whole family.
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #239 on: May 11, 2021, 11:17:12 AM »
It is anything but speculative:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2002/06/13/camp-david-and-after-an-exchange-1-an-interview-wi/
The wikipedia link says the failure of the talks caused the intifada, and you're citing is as proof the talks instigated it...

I think both the Count and I agree that if someone comes into your house shooting at you, you can shoot back at him. His aim was off this time? So what? What if his aim is better next time?
If he's actively shooting, nobody disputes that you can shoot to remove the threat. But shooting rockets indiscriminately isn't just 'shooting back'.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים