Author Topic: War in Israel  (Read 162570 times)

Online CountValentine

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #300 on: May 11, 2021, 12:15:38 PM »
This is the problem. Israel has a right to live in peace without rocket attacks.
I agree with you 100%. I feel the response should be to take out every possible military target. Of course the fallout will be when civilians are killed.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #301 on: May 11, 2021, 12:16:30 PM »
Huh? What in the world are you smoking? They have no express intent to kill all Jews? Were you born yesterday?
Reality. If you can disprove me, go ahead.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #302 on: May 11, 2021, 12:18:33 PM »
Reality. If you can disprove me, go ahead.
Start from their charter. Their actions. Their support for terror against Jews worldwide. Like hello? Do I have to prove it is day outside (for those in the EDT timezone  :D)?

Offline joe1234

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #303 on: May 11, 2021, 12:18:57 PM »
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/ספר_המצוות_עשה_רמז


Roidef is 100% self defense. There is zero liberty to kill them, only an obligation to save the victim even at the expense of killing the roidef.
this is not at all a proof... that may very well be the main point but definitely not all its limitations... I'm pretty sure this holds true for other mitzvos as well...I will try to come up with a proof sometime later...

Offline avromie7

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #304 on: May 11, 2021, 12:23:02 PM »
I agree with you 100%. I feel the response should be to take out every possible military target. Of course the fallout will be when civilians are killed.
Which is guaranteed to happen when your military infrastructure is intentionally placed inside hospitals, schools, mosques, and residential buildings.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #305 on: May 11, 2021, 12:23:54 PM »
Reality. If you can disprove me, go ahead.
Like when they celebrate an Israeli civilian being killed by handing out candy in the streets?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #306 on: May 11, 2021, 12:25:12 PM »
Like when they celebrate an Israeli civilian being killed by handing out candy in the streets?
Or 9/11 for that matter. Or when rockets fly over their supposedly beloved Al Aqsa mosque.

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #307 on: May 11, 2021, 12:28:46 PM »
Can you give me a link to Israel being condemned for taking out a military target after it was attacked?
I agree with you 100%. I feel the response should be to take out every possible military target. Of course the fallout will be when civilians are killed.

Define what a military is and what a military target is. Also, does a civilian being killed preclude that attack from being on a military target?

Ultimately, you're going to have to define who is part of the military, and if someone engaged in aid military forces is still considered a civilian.  Every condemnation is framed as rebuke for attacking civilians. Without defining what a civilian is, we're going nowhere.
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #308 on: May 11, 2021, 12:36:44 PM »
Define what a military is and what a military target is. Also, does a civilian being killed preclude that attack from being on a military target?

Ultimately, you're going to have to define who is part of the military, and if someone engaged in aid military forces is still considered a civilian.  Every condemnation is framed as rebuke for attacking civilians. Without defining what a civilian is, we're going nowhere.
Without posting "Chaim" I will make this real simple for you. ANY child is a civilian. Now you can argue about the rest but this part is not up for discussion.
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Offline JlmBoi

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #309 on: May 11, 2021, 12:38:55 PM »
BH the person killed was an Arab terrorist. The lack of casualties tonight is incredible. Chasdei Hashem. 

https://twitter.com/bezalelsm/status/1391886225745793027
The guy is now being investigated for murder.
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #310 on: May 11, 2021, 12:40:20 PM »



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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #311 on: May 11, 2021, 12:41:02 PM »
Without posting "Chaim" I will make this real simple for you. ANY child is a civilian. Now you can argue about the rest but this part is not up for discussion.

How about a child trained in firing a weapon and holding said weapon? What about teenagers? What about a child who is killed by accident while inside a military target? Everything about this conflict necessitates a recalibration of your ideas about the standard rules of engagement.
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Offline NTorch

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #312 on: May 11, 2021, 12:42:07 PM »
Like when they celebrate an Israeli civilian being killed by handing out candy in the streets?

Forever seared into my brain will be the picture of the guy showing off the blood on his hands when he lynched the two Jews who had wandered into Ramallah in October 2000.

Quote
A British photographer working on a pictorial study of Palestinian refugees stumbled on the event after the initial attack in the Ramallah police station. He did not witness that aspect. He subsequently described what he did see in The Sunday Telegraph, a respected British daily newspaper.
"I had arrived in Ramallah at about 10.30 in the morning and was getting into a taxi on the main road to go to Nablus, where there was to be a funeral that I wanted to film, when all of a sudden there came a big crowd of Palestinians shouting and running down the hill from the police station.

I got out of the car to see what was happening and saw that they were dragging something behind them. Within moments they were in front of me and, to my horror, I saw that it was a body, a man they were dragging by the feet. The lower part of his body was on fire and the upper part had been shot at, and the head beaten so badly that it was a pulp, like a red jelly.

I thought he was a soldier because I could see the remains of the khaki trousers and boots. My God, I thought, they've killed this guy. He was dead, he must have been dead, but they were still beating him, madly, kicking his head. They were like animals.

They were just a few feet in front of me and I could see everything. Instinctively, I reached for my camera. I was composing the picture when I was punched in the face by a Palestinian. Another Palestinian pointed right at me shouting 'no picture, no picture!', while another guy hit me in the face and said 'give me your film!'

I tried to get the film out but they were all grabbing me and the one guy just pulled the camera off me and smashed it to the floor. I knew I had lost the chance to take the photograph that would have made me famous and I had lost my favourite lens that I'd used all over the world, but I didn't care. I was scared for my life.

At the same time, the guy that looked like a soldier was being beaten and the crowd was getting angrier and angrier, shouting 'Allah akbar' - God is great. They were dragging the dead man around the street like a cat toying with a mouse. It was the most horrible thing that I have ever seen and I have reported from Congo, Kosovo, many bad places. In Kosovo, I saw Serbs beating an Albanian but it wasn't like this. There was such hatred, such unbelievable hatred and anger distorting their faces.

The worst thing was that I realised the anger that they were directing at me was the same as that which they'd had toward the soldier before dragging him from the police station and killing him. Somehow I escaped and ran and ran not knowing where I was going. I never saw the other guy they killed, the one they threw out of the window.

I thought that I'd got to know the Palestinians well. I've made six trips this year and had been going to Ramallah every day for the past 16 days. I thought they were kind, hospitable people. I know they are not all like this and I'm a very forgiving person but I'll never forget this. It was murder of the most barbaric kind. When I think about it, I see that man's head, all smashed. I know that I'll have nightmares for the rest of my life."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/eyewitness-to-ramallah-lynching-october-2000

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #313 on: May 11, 2021, 12:46:58 PM »
@NTorch Just one sample of many, unfortunately. Just look at the video from yesterday how they were trying to kill the people in the car in Yerushalayim.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #314 on: May 11, 2021, 12:47:56 PM »
https://twitter.com/yoavzitun/status/1392144974830096394

כן יאבדו כל אויביך ה׳
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #315 on: May 11, 2021, 12:50:21 PM »
How about a child trained in firing a weapon and holding said weapon? What about teenagers? What about a child who is killed by accident while inside a military target? Everything about this conflict necessitates a recalibration of your ideas about the standard rules of engagement.
What part of "simple" don't you understand?

I didn't want to do it but you forced my hand!!!

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #316 on: May 11, 2021, 12:51:08 PM »
What part of "simple" don't you understand?

If it's so simple, clarify it for me instead of deflecting with the damn hamster.
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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #317 on: May 11, 2021, 12:52:51 PM »
https://twitter.com/yoavzitun/status/1392144974830096394

כן יאבדו כל אויביך ה׳
Was he eliminated? Or did they warn him to leave?

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #318 on: May 11, 2021, 12:57:53 PM »
@CountValentine
There's no such thing as a proportionate response to terror. Terror is not about the death toll, it's about instilling fear into the population - terrorizing - so they don't feel safe anywhere or at any time. By its very nature, it is indiscriminate, unpredictable, and completely unmeasured. A proportionate response would be randomly firing missiles at Gaza at any time, not just during times like these as a direct response to a specific attack, which Israel has never done.

So when the politicians call on Israel to act proportionately, it's not a practical request based on the interests of peace, it's a disingenuous attempt to lambast Israel while paying lip service to the fact that Israel is being attacked.

The truth of the matter is that while tragic, the number of civilian deaths has consistently been proven to be inflated by Palestinians, and the ones that are real are because the terror infrastructure is housed in schools, mosques, hospitals, and densely populated areas. This is not a matter of opinion, it is incontrovertible fact. Yet, no matter that Israel has, according to numerous foreign military experts, exercised better precision in attacking military targets even under those circumstances than the US or other armies, there are always calls for "restraint", "proportion" and "measure". this reveals not a second side to the story, but a biased, dishonest approach. Whether that is due to anti-Semitism, falling for Palestinian propaganda, or both is up for discussion.

P.S. I have not read the entire thread, and likely won't be able to keep up with it. apologies for the drop and run.


Offline theblakdavid

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Re: War in Israel
« Reply #319 on: May 11, 2021, 01:12:48 PM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/france-urges-israel-to-use-proportionate-force-over-gaza/

For possibly the first time in my life, I agree with the French. We should fire the exact same amount of rockets indiscriminately into their most populated areas. We should also send incendiary balloons floating over the border.
Maybe they should set up an automated return rocket to the location of launch. Solves some problems. 1 for 1