Geopolitics and Wars of Israel

[drosenberg88429]

So lets say 7.5k
120000/7500=16
Lets see what the ratio is at the end of this.

 

[CountValentine]

 

Is my math wrong?

[Yehuda57]

No, link?

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/

When Hamas’s leaders surveyed their assets before this summer’s round of fighting, they knew that among those assets was the international press. The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearby—and the AP wouldn’t report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas.

From 2014

[JlmBoi]

Will have to disagree with you. This is a big problem.

One thing for sure- it indicates a belief in the existence of Palestinians, that already a degree of belief in that whole narrative.

[gozalim]

@CountValentine you don't get to switch back and forth between devil's advocate and friend in the same sentence.
If you're going to argue "disproportionate" then you need to keep character and answer "then what?". Not flip back to "hey *I* agree that it's a tough situation but understand others"

If an argument that starts with "disproportionate" can only end with "let more jews die", sorry, in my book that's hate (not malicious hate, just unfortunate hate)

[CountValentine]

@CountValentine you don't get to switch back and forth between devil's advocate and friend in the same sentence.
If you're going to argue "disproportionate" then you need to keep character and answer "then what?". Not flip back to "hey *I* agree that it's a tough situation but understand others"

If an argument that starts with "disproportionate" can only end with "let more jews die", sorry, in my book that's hate (not malicious hate, just unfortunate hate)

I am trying to show how others view what's going on.
Every answer I receive is they:
1 - they want more Jews to die
2 - they hate Jews
3 - they say disproportionate but really mean they hate Jews and want more to die
4 - a combination or all of the above

[yesitsme]

I am trying to show how others view what's going on.
Every answer I receive is they:
1 - they want more Jews to die
2 - they hate Jews
3 - they say disproportionate but really mean they hate Jews and want more to die
4 - a combination or all of the above

That pretty much sums up the other view

[yesitsme]

https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/1393701215041642496

[CountValentine]

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/

From 2014

Thanks and an interesting read. Even this reporter doesn't claim Hamas had assets in the building. They were using the building as cover for rocket launches nearby. The same way they use civilian areas, religious structures, schools, hospitals and more.

[CountValentine]

That pretty much sums up the other view

I understand why you say that and feel that way. If I was in your situation I would probably say and feel the same way.

[gozalim]

I understand why you say that and feel that way. If I was in your situation I would probably say and feel the same way.

can you untangle them somehow? If not then the devil has a s***y advocate

[CountValentine]

can you untangle them somehow? If not then the devil has a s***y advocate

Untangle what?
It doesn't matter what I say as the response is the same.

[gozalim]

Untangle what?
It doesn't matter what I say as the response is the same.

I claim that you cannot argue "disproportionate" without calling for dead Israelis. If you call for dead Israelis, you hate me.
How would you like to defend the calls for proportionality?

[drosenberg88429]

I am trying to show how others view what's going on.
Every answer I receive is they:
1 - they want more Jews to die
2 - they hate Jews
3 - they say disproportionate but really mean they hate Jews and want more to die
4 - a combination or all of the above

Everyone is answering that death ratio is a bad metric to use in a vacuum. What is relevant is how many people are attempting the murdering, how many people they are attempting to murder, and how many people would be murdered if their efforts were to remain unchecked and the response not launched.

In a society that does not glorify death, we do not want more deaths to justify a response. We look at have many lives can be saved, not how many deaths can be caused. That is the number that matters to Israel.

[Lurker]

Thanks and an interesting read. Even this reporter doesn't claim Hamas had assets in the building. They were using the building as cover for rocket launches nearby. The same way they use civilian areas, religious structures, schools, hospitals and more.

The point isn't to prove that there were assets in the building. The point is AP has a history of lying and covering for Hamas. It goes to the credibility of their claims that Hamas wasn't using the building now.

[Lurker]

@CountValentine Ultimately, you and the world need to make some very clear definitions before any questions of culpability or overreaction can be asked.

1- what is a military?
2- who is considered to be part of said military and who is considered a civilian?
3- what is considered a military target?
4- when a civilian is inside a military target (say sitting in a tank), does that demilitarize the target?
4a- If the target is attacked and the civilian inside dies, is that a civilian death?
4b- If it is, is it equal to a civilian death away from military targets?

We've already agreed that death count isn't a metric anyone should be using to gauge whether a response was appropriate or measured. I don't understand how you can play devil's advocate without first coming up with a good reason for death counts to be used to determine anything.

[Yehuda57]

Thanks and an interesting read. Even this reporter doesn't claim Hamas had assets in the building. They were using the building as cover for rocket launches nearby. The same way they use civilian areas, religious structures, schools, hospitals and more.

In 2014 he uses the words "launch right beside their office". That's pretty clear. Besides, in the video of the building being bombed, you can see a rocket launched *before*the Israeli bomb from beside the building. There is absolutely no way AP didn't know that was going on. They lie.

[CountValentine]

I claim that you cannot argue "disproportionate" without calling for dead Israelis. If you call for dead Israelis, you hate me.
How would you like to defend the calls for proportionality?

We have gone over this 100 times. I am not asking you to agree but try and understand.
The world for the most part is looking at deaths and destruction. It is disproportionate and impossible to dispute. Now the reason it is disproportionate is extremely important but most of the world is not looking at that.

The issue I am calling out is you are automatically saying anyone who believes in this fact hates Jews and wants more of them to die. That is wrong on so many different levels. 

[CountValentine]

In 2014 he uses the words "launch right beside their office". That's pretty clear. Besides, in the video of the building being bombed, you can see a rocket launched *before*the Israeli bomb from beside the building. There is absolutely no way AP didn't know that was going on. They lie.

I am not saying they didn't lie. Is Israel lying when they say Hamas assets were "in" the building?

[Yehuda57]

We have gone over this 100 times. I am not asking you to agree but try and understand.
The world for the most part is looking at deaths and destruction. It is disproportionate and impossible to dispute. Now the reason it is disproportionate is extremely important but most of the world is not looking at that.

The issue I am calling out is you are automatically saying anyone who believes in this fact hates Jews and wants more of them to die. That is wrong on so many different levels.

Fewer than 3000 Americans died on 9/11. How many Iraqis and Afghans have died in the resulting wars?