Author Topic: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel  (Read 15707 times)

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2021, 11:24:21 PM »

There are much nicer ones out there
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2021, 11:31:02 PM »

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2021, 11:55:56 AM »
If it's the proper thing for Israel to do, anyone calling them out is prejudiced.

That isn't necessarily true. If two people are dying and there is only 1 piece of bread, both of them are perfectly justified to fight for it, despite murdering others.

Now, what if that piece of bread can save 50 people or me? From my perspective, my life comes first. For an outside observer, it's unfair to take life away from 50 people just to save my life.

This is precisely what is happening. A round of fighting in Gaza typically ends up costing several thousand Arab lives. For Jews to do the work from the ground instead of from the air, would costs a few dozen or hundreds of Jewish life.

As a Jew, my interest is to minimize Jewish loss of life even at the expense of Arab loss of life. But that doesn't blind me from understanding how others would see that as unfair

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2021, 11:59:21 AM »
in your opinion.
let's not have this one out here
By mainstream Charedim that aren't part of a certain sect. I did not intend to connote a superiority, and apologize if it sounded like I did.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline avromie7

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2021, 12:01:15 PM »
That isn't necessarily true. If two people are dying and there is only 1 piece of bread, both of them are perfectly justified to fight for it, despite murdering others.

Now, what if that piece of bread can save 50 people or me? From my perspective, my life comes first. For an outside observer, it's unfair to take life away from 50 people just to save my life.

This is precisely what is happening. A round of fighting in Gaza typically ends up costing several thousand Arab lives. For Jews to do the work from the ground instead of from the air, would costs a few dozen or hundreds of Jewish life.

As a Jew, my interest is to minimize Jewish loss of life even at the expense of Arab loss of life. But that doesn't blind me from understanding how others would see that as unfair
Why is there only 1 piece of bread? Who sabotaged all the bread?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2021, 12:08:06 PM »
Which one do you agree with? Sharon's original assessment or his changed assessment?
Jewish sovereignty over the territory is completely irrelevant to me and my Rebbeim (unlike many of the residents who were willing to risk their lives for the ideal), and the residents were well compensated.

So the only question is strategic. To date, seceding from Gaza saved lives more than it cost, and nobody reasonable disputes that. The issue is Hamas is progressively becoming powerful, and it's possible in the long run the price will become heavier. On the other hand, you can't blame all of that on the original secession - nobody is stopping Israel for going right back militarily.

Protecting Gush Katif cost many soldiers lives every year without fail. I'm happy for the lives spared and hope it won't cost other lives.

Although I don't know which position is correct, I think I have a decent understanding of both sides, and ultimately I trust the judgement of Sharon and Netanyahu as the best suited to make the judgement call, so I support it.

Hope I answered your question.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2021, 12:14:50 PM »
Why is there only 1 piece of bread? Who sabotaged all the bread?
From an Arab point of view, European Jews who came to a country they controlled and turned it into a Jewish country. Some of the process was done fairly and legally, but some of it wasn't.

From a Jewish point of view, you blame the Romans who evicted us in the first place and the Arabs who didn't accept us when we decided to come back.

A classic example is illegal Jewish immigration during the British mandate. From an Arab point of a view, it was a crime like the current Border Crises. From a Jewish point of view, the British rule was illegitimate since a higher power deemed the land ours. It's hard to justify the Jewish position without theological belief, which is very problematic when many Jewish theological authorities dispute it.

In the end, there is only 1 temple mount, but both sides care about it more than their own life... 

To me, Jewish welfare is more important than justice and fairness. But I understand outsiders who disagree.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online ExGingi

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2021, 12:17:40 PM »
From an Arab point of view, European Jews who came to a country they controlled and turned it into a Jewish country. Some of the process was done fairly and legally, but some of it wasn't.

When was the "country" (as I pointed out, there wasn't one) controlled by the Arabs?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online aygart

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2021, 12:19:08 PM »
From an Arab point of view, European Jews who came to a country they controlled and turned it into a Jewish country.

When was the last time that the area was under Arab control?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2021, 12:20:11 PM »
Based on the halacha of how to deal with neighboring nations, even when their intentions appear to be peaceful ...
That's something I was unaware of.

When was the "country" (as I pointed out, there wasn't one) controlled by the Arabs?
Last I check, the Turks were Arabs. The British were a UN appointed caregiver appointed to maintain the status quo when they came in.

Either way, replace 'controlled' with 'constituted overwhelming majority of'. Like Jews are in Lakewood now.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline avromie7

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2021, 12:20:45 PM »
From an Arab point of view, European Jews who came to a country they controlled and turned it into a Jewish country. Some of the process was done fairly and legally, but some of it wasn't.

From a Jewish point of view, you blame the Romans who evicted us in the first place and the Arabs who didn't accept us when we decided to come back.

A classic example is illegal Jewish immigration during the British mandate. From an Arab point of a view, it was a crime like the current Border Crises. From a Jewish point of view, the British rule was illegitimate since a higher power deemed the land ours. It's hard to justify the Jewish position without theological belief, which is very problematic when many Jewish theological authorities dispute it.

In the end, there is only 1 temple mount, but both sides care about it more than their own life... 

To me, Jewish welfare is more important than justice and fairness. But I understand outsiders who disagree.
Is this why there are always civilians inside the Hamas military infrastructure, or is it because Hamas uses them as human shields?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2021, 12:23:56 PM »
That's something I was unaware of.
שו"ע או"ח סי' שכט

Last I check, the Turks were Arabs. The British were a UN appointed caregiver appointed to maintain the status quo when they came in.

Either way, replace 'controlled' with 'constituted overwhelming majority of'. Like Jews are in Lakewood now.

You're pretty consistent with your knowledge of facts. Turks are not Arabs, they are not even a Semitic tribe. IINM they are מבני יפת!

And BTW, just so you don't get those facts wrong, the Iranians aren't Arabs either.

ETA: Forgot to mention that the UN didn't exist when the British took over after WWI (though the predecessor to the UN was created).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 12:29:29 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2021, 12:24:13 PM »
with @PlatinumGuy 's permision id like to clarify my take on this conversation.

there is (almost) no one among mainstream chareidi judaism who is of the opinion that there is no mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel today.

there is no one who in his right mind can argue that the general opinions and actions of the non religious zionists of 100 years ago werent pure blasphemy.

facts on the ground were, that jews were being slaughtered in europe and most had nowhere to go.

those who felt the right/smart thing to do was to go LIVE in ERETZ yisroel, included the likes of the chazon ish, brisker ruv, and rav shach.

although they moved here and lived out their lives here, the above mentioned giants, were vehemently and ideologically opposed to MEDINAT YISRAEL.

they were opposed to the STATE for religious reasons and convictions, and indeed no one can argue that much irreversible damage to judaism has been done by the the STATE and its cronies, as foreseen by these holy men. chacham adif minavi. they foresaw the terrible damage it had wreaked and still wreaks on judaism, and therefore regarded it as a calamity.

that being said, all 3 of the above mentioned were in constant touch with the leaders and MP's of the state, and gave them plenty of their wise advice in handling many different situations, including military advice.

jews must constantly be wary to survive religiously. we must constantly be wary to survive physically as well. (even PG spends much of his time in between ideological arguments with safety precautions)

for many years, there was an opinion amongst many torah leaders, including harav shach, that if we appease the arabs/ give them territory/ be careful not to anger the world etc etc, we would be safer off. this was NOT chalila a matter of liberalism, human rights deviations, or meek hearted post modern pluralism. these gedolim couldnt have been further from such ideas. it was pure survival tactics.

when rav shach and the steipler realized that we and the world had come to a situation, where the religious dangers posed to us by the left, which was becoming more and more liberal by the day, were more dangerous to our religious survival, than the physical threat posed to us by the arabs, which were becoming less and less by the day, he immediately changed tactics, and "switched sides" to join forces with the right. in reality he never had been on any side. he had always only been occupied with worrying for the religious and physical survival of the jewish ppl. regardless of any state.

till today the mainstream chareidim have never rejoined forces with the left. everything they stand for is so in contrast with judaism, it just wouldnt work. their post modern globalist non sensible views, are so wacked out, that anyone who cares for either the religious or physical survival of the jewish ppl, shares no common ground with them.

we see clearly today, that bending to the arabs and/or the world just doesnt work in todays planet earth. every centimeter that we give them produces another centimeter of jewish blood spilled. every time we bow our heads to them gives them more confidence to continue terrorizing us.

we, the ppl of the book, who abhor the sword, have no choice but to wield the sword in order not to get felled by the sword. much of this is due to the horrible religious destruction wreaked upon us by the state and the liberals who have filled our holy land with sinfull actions and ideas.

that does not mean chalila that our youth should be trained to use the sword. because for every hour they spend in the beis medrash, they are filling our land with torah and holiness, which is much more effective in saving us physically than all the swords in the world. they are our true saviors. much more than all those sword wielding sinners who are busy fighting off the dangers they themselves are bringing upon us.

to answer arab aggression with "appeasement" and all the other new world types of weak ideas, is only digging us further into the mud, by further entrenching ourselves in the anti torah liberal ideologies, which is actually what gives our enemies the power to keep on abusing us.

the only effective way to deal with the situation we have found ourselves thrown into, is to on one hand improve our torah and religious studies and convictions, which is the greatest force to weaken our oppressors, and on the other hand to demand from those whose actions and ideas are allowing the oppressors to rise, that they respond as close as possible to the torah's way of dealing with our enemies.

if we allow them to further their anti torah liberal views, we are losing on both ends. we are steeping our holy land further into their filth religious wise, and by default endangering even more our chances of physical survival.

I have a short attention span and with the amount of posts, I tend to ignore the longer ones. But I took the time to read this one, and appreciate the civility. I think I agree with all of the historical points mentioned in this post. The estimates of future policy are speculative and there are strong arguments for both courses of action. Neither should be dismissed out of hands and we should pray our leaders act correctly.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2021, 12:29:49 PM »
Is this why there are always civilians inside the Hamas military infrastructure, or is it because Hamas uses them as human shields?
That's a very valid point. There is a very significant distinction between civilians who support Hamas and explicitly or implicitly chose to become human shields, and other Palestinians residents (oftentimes innocent kids of the former) who are not and are captives. It is not Israel that turned them into captives, but it is Israel that prefers to risk killing them then going in and risk damage to their own soldiers, which is where my example of saving my life at the expense of 50 others comes in. From my perspective, its' the right thing do, others would consider it unfair.

It's a level of nuance I don't expect from the average media/pundits, and most serious observers don't deny.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2021, 12:32:48 PM »
Yes. “From sea to shining sea”
There is an equal amount of Jews that advocate removing all Arabs “From sea to shining sea”, many of them by violence.

It's true that they don't control Israel whereas Hamas controls Gaza, which is a major difference.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2021, 12:37:19 PM »
There is an equal amount of Jews that advocate removing all Arabs “From sea to shining sea”, many of them by violence.

It's true that they don't control Israel whereas Hamas controls Gaza, which is a major difference.

Absolute hogwash.
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Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2021, 12:40:08 PM »
Last I check, the Turks were Arabs.
Where did you check?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2021, 12:49:34 PM »
There is an equal amount of Jews that advocate removing all Arabs “From sea to shining sea”, many of them by violence.

It's true that they don't control Israel whereas Hamas controls Gaza, which is a major difference.
No there isn't. And even those few extremists who we can all agree to call crazy believe that, it's only because they believe that the Arabs want nothing more than to kill everyone one of them.

End of the story is, if the Arabs want peace they would have it.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2021, 12:53:51 PM »
By mainstream Charedim that aren't part of a certain sect. I did not intend to connote a superiority, and apologize if it sounded like I did.
Charedim includes a broad section of Jews. Many Chassidim included (much to certain people's chagrin). Many Sefardim as well
Your Rebbeim may be the definition of the yeshivish/litvish sector of Charedi Judaism, but that's it.

on the topic being discussed:
regarding the strategic question of which approach today is Torah's preferred approach, @PlatinumGuy is following his rebbeim, who are recognized part of mainstream Charedi, but by no means the majority consensus (on this issue). The volume of Charedi members here who are uncomfortable with his positions is a reflection of that.
the positions of many Charedi Gedolim (not just the Rebbe) differ (to 'the right') from theirs

Offline avromie7

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2021, 12:54:03 PM »
That's a very valid point. There is a very significant distinction between civilians who support Hamas and explicitly or implicitly chose to become human shields, and other Palestinians residents (oftentimes innocent kids of the former) who are not and are captives. It is not Israel that turned them into captives, but it is Israel that prefers to risk killing them then going in and risk damage to their own soldiers, which is where my example of saving my life at the expense of 50 others comes in. From my perspective, its' the right thing do, others would consider it unfair.

It's a level of nuance I don't expect from the average media/pundits, and most serious observers don't deny.
The fact that anyone can lay the blame on Israel while ignoring the fact that Hamas is using them as human shields is the problem.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.