Author Topic: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel  (Read 11965 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2021, 11:26:06 AM »
the "professional" assessments are the same as they were pre-Oslo.
Arial Sharon was one of Israel's greatest military professionals, one of the most vocal opponents to Oslo, and his assessment changed.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yelped

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2021, 12:17:05 PM »
Don't be so sure that mainstream hareidi hashkafa is what you claim it is. Almost all Poileshe Rebbes held that Jews should move and live in EY, regardless of the state.

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2021, 01:46:42 PM »
Arial Sharon was one of Israel's greatest military professionals, one of the most vocal opponents to Oslo, and his assessment changed.
when he went into politics. and he wasn't the first.

The Rebbe spoke at length about the need for opinions form Military experts who are currently Military

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2021, 01:47:28 PM »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2021, 01:51:16 PM »
Mainstream Charedi Hashkafa (though maybe not all) would have preferred a world where secular zionism never existed.

Now that Millions of Jews are there, the facts have greatly changed, as all will agree. regarding the strategic question of which approach today is Torah's preferred approach, @PlatinumGuy is following his rebbeim, who are recognized part of mainstream Charedi, but by no means the majority consensus (on this issue). The volume of Charedi members here who are uncomfortable with his positions is a reflection of that.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2021, 01:56:20 PM »
Don't be so sure that mainstream hareidi hashkafa is what you claim it is. Almost all Poileshe Rebbes held that Jews should move and live in EY, regardless of the state.
Ive said multiple times individuals (and communities) immigrating have nothing to do with this.

when he went into politics. and he wasn't the first.

The Rebbe spoke at length about the need for opinions form Military experts who are currently Military
I’m not well versed on what the rebbe said but the military overwhelmingly supported Sharon’s 2015 exit. The main objective was to save soldiers lives who were sitting ducks protecting Gush Katif. I would be surprised if any senior military commander (Aluf or higher) was opposed in any way.

In general, the Israeli army brass is a staunch left wing bastion. There is a well known phenomenon where religious soldiers (who are a drastically growing share of new recruits) end up removing yarmulkes to score upgrades above a certain level.

Generally
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2021, 01:57:22 PM »
Mainstream Charedi Hashkafa (though maybe not all) would have preferred a world where secular zionism never existed.

Now that Millions of Jews are there, the facts have greatly changed, as all will agree. regarding the strategic question of which approach today is Torah's preferred approach, @PlatinumGuy is following his rebbeim, who are recognized part of mainstream Charedi, but by no means the majority consensus (on this issue). The volume of Charedi members here who are uncomfortable with his positions is a reflection of that.
Most of those arguing on this point are simply uninformed. Rav Shach is the definition of mainstream charedi hashkfa.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2021, 02:03:03 PM »
Rav Shach is the definition of mainstream charedi hashkfa.
in your opinion.
let's not have this one out here

Offline neveryou

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2021, 02:06:59 PM »
Arial Sharon was one of Israel's greatest military professionals, one of the most vocal opponents to Oslo, and his assessment changed.
Which one do you agree with? Sharon's original assessment or his changed assessment?

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2021, 02:07:16 PM »
From what I understand, the Rebbe was convinced that shleimus ha'aretz makes Jews safer,
Based on the halacha of how to deal with neighboring nations, even when their intentions appear to be peaceful ...

and if circumstances would change and the professional assessment would differ, he would believe we must give territory back.

... and hence no amount of talk of geopolitical shifts or changing circumstances would change halacha or the Rebbe's view.

Quote from: ExGingi
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2021, 02:09:31 PM »



... and hence no amount of talk of geopolitical shifts or changing circumstances would change halacha or the Rebbe's view.

Non-lubavitchers don't realize this, that's why they say statements like he did

Offline mushkovits

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2021, 04:56:09 PM »
From what I understand, the Rebbe was convinced that shleimus ha'aretz makes Jews safer, and if circumstances would change and the professional assessment would differ, he would believe we must give territory back.
Wasn’t the rebbes opinion that the land doesn’t belong to the Zionists and they can’t give it back if it’s not theirs?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2021, 05:29:51 PM »
And here is what the Rebbe the Rashab z"l has to say on the matter. His numerous letters in אגרות קודש מהרש׳׳ב on this subject sheds an enormous amount of light on what the Jewish view on Zionism should be. Reading this blog often makes me wonder if certain Lubavitch members have the slightest idea of his stance.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31622&st=&pgnum=361

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31622&st=&pgnum=342

 


Let me start off by stating that it is indisputable that Zionism is heavily rooted in כפירה, and as pointed out by the Rebbe RaShaB in the letter quoted, it's purpose was to uproot Torah out of Yidden, and make Yidden a nation like all others, r"l.

What some fail to see is that there were substantial GLOBAL changes after the time of the Rebbe RaShaB, which made the opposition to Zionism take a different path, due to GLOBAL geopolitical changes that occurred post WWI. Up until WWI the idea of a Nation-State was just that, and not so much commonplace in the global scenery. As such the opposition to Zionism prior to WWI was unmistakable and unequivocal.

Post WWI the entire world moved towards Nation States rather than Empires. As such there was somewhat of a vacuum created. Add to that WWII which showed the great perils that existed in Europe, and the entire situation on the ground changed. So while still in full opposition to the Zionist ideas, the facts on the ground were such that settling in EY became much more commonplace, and as such, one needed to view and react to the situation from a standpoint of the safety of the Jews.

Even the policies of appeasement and living with (and within) the goyim change, due to everyone's nationalistic aspirations, which were mostly non-existent a century earlier.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2021, 05:57:42 PM »
. Reading this blog often makes me wonder if certain Lubavitch members have the slightest idea of his stance.

This is a pretty good simplified explainer, IMHO

https://youtu.be/eKoWgbV8NKs
Quote from: ExGingi
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Offline m65

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2021, 06:59:20 PM »
with @PlatinumGuy 's permision id like to clarify my take on this conversation.

there is (almost) no one among mainstream chareidi judaism who is of the opinion that there is no mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel today.

there is no one who in his right mind can argue that the general opinions and actions of the non religious zionists of 100 years ago werent pure blasphemy.

facts on the ground were, that jews were being slaughtered in europe and most had nowhere to go.

those who felt the right/smart thing to do was to go LIVE in ERETZ yisroel, included the likes of the chazon ish, brisker ruv, and rav shach.

although they moved here and lived out their lives here, the above mentioned giants, were vehemently and ideologically opposed to MEDINAT YISRAEL.

they were opposed to the STATE for religious reasons and convictions, and indeed no one can argue that much irreversible damage to judaism has been done by the the STATE and its cronies, as foreseen by these holy men. chacham adif minavi. they foresaw the terrible damage it had wreaked and still wreaks on judaism, and therefore regarded it as a calamity.

that being said, all 3 of the above mentioned were in constant touch with the leaders and MP's of the state, and gave them plenty of their wise advice in handling many different situations, including military advice.

jews must constantly be wary to survive religiously. we must constantly be wary to survive physically as well. (even PG spends much of his time in between ideological arguments with safety precautions)

for many years, there was an opinion amongst many torah leaders, including harav shach, that if we appease the arabs/ give them territory/ be careful not to anger the world etc etc, we would be safer off. this was NOT chalila a matter of liberalism, human rights deviations, or meek hearted post modern pluralism. these gedolim couldnt have been further from such ideas. it was pure survival tactics.

when rav shach and the steipler realized that we and the world had come to a situation, where the religious dangers posed to us by the left, which was becoming more and more liberal by the day, were more dangerous to our religious survival, than the physical threat posed to us by the arabs, which were becoming less and less by the day, he immediately changed tactics, and "switched sides" to join forces with the right. in reality he never had been on any side. he had always only been occupied with worrying for the religious and physical survival of the jewish ppl. regardless of any state.

till today the mainstream chareidim have never rejoined forces with the left. everything they stand for is so in contrast with judaism, it just wouldnt work. their post modern globalist non sensible views, are so wacked out, that anyone who cares for either the religious or physical survival of the jewish ppl, shares no common ground with them.

we see clearly today, that bending to the arabs and/or the world just doesnt work in todays planet earth. every centimeter that we give them produces another centimeter of jewish blood spilled. every time we bow our heads to them gives them more confidence to continue terrorizing us.

we, the ppl of the book, who abhor the sword, have no choice but to wield the sword in order not to get felled by the sword. much of this is due to the horrible religious destruction wreaked upon us by the state and the liberals who have filled our holy land with sinfull actions and ideas.

that does not mean chalila that our youth should be trained to use the sword. because for every hour they spend in the beis medrash, they are filling our land with torah and holiness, which is much more effective in saving us physically than all the swords in the world. they are our true saviors. much more than all those sword wielding sinners who are busy fighting off the dangers they themselves are bringing upon us.

to answer arab aggression with "appeasement" and all the other new world types of weak ideas, is only digging us further into the mud, by further entrenching ourselves in the anti torah liberal ideologies, which is actually what gives our enemies the power to keep on abusing us.

the only effective way to deal with the situation we have found ourselves thrown into, is to on one hand improve our torah and religious studies and convictions, which is the greatest force to weaken our oppressors, and on the other hand to demand from those whose actions and ideas are allowing the oppressors to rise, that they respond as close as possible to the torah's way of dealing with our enemies.

if we allow them to further their anti torah liberal views, we are losing on both ends. we are steeping our holy land further into their filth religious wise, and by default endangering even more our chances of physical survival.

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2021, 07:35:13 PM »
with @PlatinumGuy 's permision id like to clarify my take on this conversation.

there is (almost) no one among mainstream chareidi judaism who is of the opinion that there is no mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel today.

there is no one who in his right mind can argue that the general opinions and actions of the non religious zionists of 100 years ago werent pure blasphemy.

facts on the ground were, that jews were being slaughtered in europe and most had nowhere to go.

those who felt the right/smart thing to do was to go LIVE in ERETZ yisroel, included the likes of the chazon ish, brisker ruv, and rav shach.

although they moved here and lived out their lives here, the above mentioned giants, were vehemently and ideologically opposed to MEDINAT YISRAEL.

they were opposed to the STATE for religious reasons and convictions, and indeed no one can argue that much irreversible damage to judaism has been done by the the STATE and its cronies, as foreseen by these holy men. chacham adif minavi. they foresaw the terrible damage it had wreaked and still wreaks on judaism, and therefore regarded it as a calamity.

that being said, all 3 of the above mentioned were in constant touch with the leaders and MP's of the state, and gave them plenty of their wise advice in handling many different situations, including military advice.

jews must constantly be wary to survive religiously. we must constantly be wary to survive physically as well. (even PG spends much of his time in between ideological arguments with safety precautions)

for many years, there was an opinion amongst many torah leaders, including harav shach, that if we appease the arabs/ give them territory/ be careful not to anger the world etc etc, we would be safer off. this was NOT chalila a matter of liberalism, human rights deviations, or meek hearted post modern pluralism. these gedolim couldnt have been further from such ideas. it was pure survival tactics.

when rav shach and the steipler realized that we and the world had come to a situation, where the religious dangers posed to us by the left, which was becoming more and more liberal by the day, were more dangerous to our religious survival, than the physical threat posed to us by the arabs, which were becoming less and less by the day, he immediately changed tactics, and "switched sides" to join forces with the right. in reality he never had been on any side. he had always only been occupied with worrying for the religious and physical survival of the jewish ppl. regardless of any state.

till today the mainstream chareidim have never rejoined forces with the left. everything they stand for is so in contrast with judaism, it just wouldnt work. their post modern globalist non sensible views, are so wacked out, that anyone who cares for either the religious or physical survival of the jewish ppl, shares no common ground with them.

we see clearly today, that bending to the arabs and/or the world just doesnt work in todays planet earth. every centimeter that we give them produces another centimeter of jewish blood spilled. every time we bow our heads to them gives them more confidence to continue terrorizing us.

we, the ppl of the book, who abhor the sword, have no choice but to wield the sword in order not to get felled by the sword. much of this is due to the horrible religious destruction wreaked upon us by the state and the liberals who have filled our holy land with sinfull actions and ideas.

that does not mean chalila that our youth should be trained to use the sword. because for every hour they spend in the beis medrash, they are filling our land with torah and holiness, which is much more effective in saving us physically than all the swords in the world. they are our true saviors. much more than all those sword wielding sinners who are busy fighting off the dangers they themselves are bringing upon us.

to answer arab aggression with "appeasement" and all the other new world types of weak ideas, is only digging us further into the mud, by further entrenching ourselves in the anti torah liberal ideologies, which is actually what gives our enemies the power to keep on abusing us.

the only effective way to deal with the situation we have found ourselves thrown into, is to on one hand improve our torah and religious studies and convictions, which is the greatest force to weaken our oppressors, and on the other hand to demand from those whose actions and ideas are allowing the oppressors to rise, that they respond as close as possible to the torah's way of dealing with our enemies.

if we allow them to further their anti torah liberal views, we are losing on both ends. we are steeping our holy land further into their filth religious wise, and by default endangering even more our chances of physical survival.

Where is the minus -10,000 button? :P

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2021, 10:53:48 PM »
Where is the minus -10,000 button? :P
Right below the +10,000 button.
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Offline Yo ssi

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2021, 10:57:18 PM »

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2021, 11:14:59 PM »

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2021, 11:22:10 PM »