Actual reasons people go OTD

[M218]

Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page

Are we? Then let me fast turn my page... 

[M218]

Guys it’s very hard to keep along which side everyone is on so please add under Location “Chasidos”?

[AsherO]

This I disagree with. Judaism is based on Emunah, and when you take the underlying Emunah away, one can have legitimate theological questions about the origins of the world in general, and Yiddishkeit in particular (mesorah, etc.). That's not to say there aren't answers to many (if not all) of those questions, but when traumas have pushed people to a certain place, they don't always seek out the answers to those questions in the right places.

As a trauma survivor I can tell you there are no answers, and that Emunah means being able to have faith despite not having any explanations/answers. There are answers, but they don’t really address the question fully and satisfactorily.

[ckmk47]

Emunah means being able to have faith despite not having any explanations/answers. There are answers, but they don’t really address the question fully and satisfactorily.

+1
Emunah can be comforting. 
I don't know why things are as they are, but Hashem has a plan.  The world isn't just meaningless chaos.

[srepw]

This I disagree with. Judaism is based on Emunah, and when you take the underlying Emunah away, one can have legitimate theological questions about the origins of the world in general, and Yiddishkeit in particular (mesorah, etc.). That's not to say there aren't answers to many (if not all) of those questions, but when traumas have pushed people to a certain place, they don't always seek out the answers to those questions in the right places.

The Ramchal writes that there are no questions on Emunah that we don't have answers for. (Translation by me - there are stirus to Emunah. We don't know the specific answers, but there are no Koshyas and Stirus whose answers aren't readily available.)

[Lurker]

As a trauma survivor I can tell you there are no answers, and that Emunah means being able to have faith despite not having any explanations/answers. There are answers, but they don’t really address the question fully and satisfactorily.

I don't think you understood what I wrote. My point was that in many (most?) cases, the sfeikus in Emunah are not caused by the trauma. The theological questions are there, with or without trauma, and those questions are very often legitimate. The trauma causes people to either a) not be receptive to the answers, b) not be receptive to the people/seforim giving the answers, and/or c) look for answers in other places. So, in that sense, trauma is the cause for most OTD people leaving, but that doesn't mean that the theological questions they have are rooted in their response to the trauma. There are some people who's questions are like you say, i.e.

where was G-d in my suffering, how could G-d allow it to happen, why do bad things happen to good people, if religion is supposed to bring out the best in people and have them follow in G-d’s ways, why are some so-called religious people (even popular Rabbis) evil? and other similar questions.

but IME, that's not the case for a large number of the people who go OTD. By reducing the path they've decided to take as simply a reaction to their trauma, you inadvertently cause them to conclude that there are no answers to their theological questions, and that Orthodox Judaism must not be right way. Both things need to be acknowledged and addressed. "I'm sorry that this was your experience. It was wrong for XYZ. Your trauma is real/understandable, and it must be addressed properly whether you choose Orthodox Judaism as your path in life or not. Your theological questions about life and Judaism are also legitimate. This is what we believe and why."

[AsherO]

I don't think you understood what I wrote. My point was that in many (most?) cases, the sfeikus in Emunah are not caused by the trauma. The theological questions are there, with or without trauma, and those questions are very often legitimate. The trauma causes people to either a) not be receptive to the answers, b) not be receptive to the people/seforim giving the answers, and/or c) look for answers in other places. So, in that sense, trauma is the cause for most OTD people leaving, but that doesn't mean that the theological questions they have are rooted in their response to the trauma.

In theory it's true, the questions can be asked with or without trauma, but the trauma creates a pressing (often existential) need for answers to these questions, sometimes as a way to explain/justify the pain.

By reducing the path they've decided to take as simply a reaction to their trauma, you inadvertently cause them to conclude that there are no answers to their theological questions, and that Orthodox Judaism must not be right way. Both things need to be acknowledged and addressed. "I'm sorry that this was your experience. It was wrong for XYZ. Your trauma is real/understandable, and it must be addressed properly whether you choose Orthodox Judaism as your path in life or not. Your theological questions about life and Judaism are also legitimate. This is what we believe and why."

This part I can agree with.

[Lurker]

In theory it's true, the questions can be asked with or without trauma, but the trauma creates a pressing (often existential) need for answers to these questions, sometimes as a way to explain/justify the pain.

We're not disagreeing. My personal opinion, based on both my personal experiences and those of many of the people I've met and/or spoken to over the years, is that a very large number of the people who go OTD these days and for the last 20 years have experienced trauma, but not necessarily to the point of causing life crises with pressing existential questions. I find that it's usually several "micro traumas" and bad experiences which help create an environment where, when standard theological questions don't get asked or answered properly, people are happy to write off the whole thing and go OTD. I believe that when Rabbi Taub says that most OTD today is caused by trauma, this may be what he's referring to, and not extreme traumas such as loss, physical/mental/sexual abuse, and the like.

[AsherO]

We're not disagreeing. My personal opinion, based on both my personal experiences and those of many of the people I've met and/or spoken to over the years, is that a very large number of the people who go OTD these days and for the last 20 years have experienced trauma, but not necessarily to the point of causing life crises with pressing existential questions. I find that it's usually several "micro traumas" and bad experiences which help create an environment where, when standard theological questions don't get asked or answered properly, people are happy to write off the whole thing and go OTD. I believe that when Rabbi Taub says that most OTD today is caused by trauma, this may be what he's referring to, and not extreme traumas such as loss, physical/mental/sexual abuse, and the like.

So we’re in agreement. I was negating theological issues in the first place, and even where those existed I was rooting them in the “traumas”.

What you say about bad experiences and “micro traumas” is true, PTSD research teaches us about conditioning and how two people can react very differently to the same event. Even those without a clinical PTSD diagnosis can have prior life experiences that make them more sensitive/vulnerable and deeply affected by marginalization that other (more grounded) people would take in stride.

[Lurker]

So we’re in agreement. I was negating theological issues in the first place, and even where those existed I was rooting them in the “traumas”.

We're almost there 

I don't root the theological issues in the trauma, and I don't negate them at all. The theological issues are there for almost all of us, whether we stay frum or not. We have countless seforim addressing these issues, and we still come up with questions. The difference is that some people's circumstances (traumas, etc.) put them in a position where the answers to those questions are harder to come by. Like I said earlier:

My point was that in many (most?) cases, the sfeikus in Emunah are not caused by the trauma. The theological questions are there, with or without trauma, and those questions are very often legitimate. The trauma causes people to either a) not be receptive to the answers, b) not be receptive to the people/seforim giving the answers, and/or c) look for answers in other places. So, in that sense, trauma is the cause for most OTD people leaving, but that doesn't mean that the theological questions they have are rooted in their response to the trauma.

Without the theological questions, many of those who experienced negative circumstances may not have went OTD. The combination of the two creates an opening to leave. Some leave regardless of theological thoughts, either because of trauma or because they want something else from life, but to negate theology as a cause is a mistake, IMO.

[aygart]

How many of these great theologians who are so confident in their reasoning actually spent the time and put in the effort to go through 1000 years of theological writings?

[Lurker]

How many of these great theologians who are so confident in their reasoning actually spent the time and put in the effort to go through 1000 years of theological writings?

You need to be great to have sfeikos in Emunah?

[aygart]

You need to be great to have sfeikos in Emunah?

Anyone can have questions but it would be ridiculous to base lifestyle changes on them without doing some sort of research into the many volumes written on the subject.

[Lurker]

Anyone can have questions but it would be ridiculous to base lifestyle changes on them without doing some sort of research into the many volumes written on the subject.

Enter "trauma" - a mitigating emotional block which

causes people to either a) not be receptive to the answers, b) not be receptive to the people/seforim giving the answers, and/or c) look for answers in other places.

[AsherO]

We're almost there 

I don't root the theological issues in the trauma, and I don't negate them at all. The theological issues are there for almost all of us, whether we stay frum or not. We have countless seforim addressing these issues, and we still come up with questions. The difference is that some people's circumstances (traumas, etc.) put them in a position where the answers to those questions are harder to come by. Like I said earlier:

Without the theological questions, many of those who experienced negative circumstances may not have went OTD. The combination of the two creates an opening to leave. Some leave regardless of theological thoughts, either because of trauma or because they want something else from life, but to negate theology as a cause is a mistake, IMO.

I’m having a hard time figuring out if whether we agree or not.

I agree that anyone can have theological questions. But I disagree that it’s a thought out theological choice that traumatized people are making to live a secular life.

[Lurker]

I’m having a hard time figuring out if whether we agree or not.

I agree that anyone can have theological questions. But I disagree that it’s a thought out theological choice that traumatized people are making to live a secular life.

If I have a question, but I don't research all possible answers, does that delegitimize my question? If I then make decisions based on the questions and answers that I have, without having delved as deeply as humanly possible into the subject, does that mean that my decisions aren't based on the questions and answers that I have, even if the answers aren't the best possible ones? The standard we hold OTD people to is one we never think to apply to people who stay frum. If I, as a frum person, have questions in Emunah, and I shrug them off and say, "Nu, I have questions, but I'm going to still do what I was told I have to do," why is my choice more legitimate than someone who has questions, doesn't like the few answers he was given, and decides to go OTD?

[AsherO]

If I have a question, but I don't research all possible answers, does that delegitimize my question? If I then make decisions based on the questions and answers that I have, without having delved as deeply as humanly possible into the subject, does that mean that my decisions aren't based on the questions and answers that I have, even if the answers aren't the best possible ones? The standard we hold OTD people to is one we never think to apply to people who stay frum. If I, as a frum person, have questions in Emunah, and I shrug them off and say, "Nu, I have questions, but I'm going to still do what I was told I have to do," why is my choice more legitimate than someone who has questions, doesn't like the few answers he was given, and decides to go OTD?

My point is that everyone could potentially have questions, but IMHO it isn’t those questions per se that motivate most OTD’s their life’s choices. As far as I’m concerned pure theology is a non-factor in the first place.

[aygart]

Enter "trauma" - a mitigating emotional block which

You think they read Aristotle?

[Lurker]

My point is that everyone could potentially have questions, but IMHO it isn’t those questions per se that motivate most OTD’s their life’s choices. As far as I’m concerned pure theology is a non-factor in the first place.

I'll agree that pure theology is very, very rare, but that goes the other way, too. Most frum Jews have a number of factors in their lifestyle choices. That doesn't mean theology doesn't play a significant part in the lifestyle decisions of either frum or non-frum Jews.

[Lurker]

You think they read Aristotle?

Some do. What difference does it make?