Author Topic: Actual reasons people go OTD  (Read 8393 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2021, 09:15:41 PM »
I'd just like to say, this attitude of dismissing someone's theological issues with Judaism because he must not have done enough research and there must be other reasons he left... it's quite prevalent in the frum community, and it's why people don't come back.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2021, 09:17:02 PM »
You think they read Aristotle?

The irony is that the few I’ve heard who do are on an intellectual trip in total denial of what they’re experiencing emotionally.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2021, 09:18:07 PM »
I'd just like to say, this attitude of dismissing someone's theological issues with Judaism because he must not have done enough research and there must be other reasons he left... it's quite prevalent in the frum community, and it's why people don't come back.

FTR, I’m not dismissive of anyone’s theological issues regardless of their past/current/future lifestyle choices.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2021, 09:35:42 PM »
FTR, I’m not dismissive of anyone’s theological issues regardless of their past/current/future lifestyle choices.

But by deflecting to other underlying issues, you're effectively dismissing the role theology plays in their decisions. As humans, we are all just a sum of our circumstances and experiences, and our reactions to them. It colors how we process information and even how or where we choose to get our information from. A person's trauma can influence them towards Judaism or away from it. We don't reduce a ba'al teshuva's journey to the traumas of their previous lifestyle , and we shouldn't do it to people who make the opposite changes in their lives.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2021, 10:18:35 PM »
But by deflecting to other underlying issues, you're effectively dismissing the role theology plays in their decisions. As humans, we are all just a sum of our circumstances and experiences, and our reactions to them. It colors how we process information and even how or where we choose to get our information from. A person's trauma can influence them towards Judaism or away from it. We don't reduce a ba'al teshuva's journey to the traumas of their previous lifestyle , and we shouldn't do it to people who make the opposite changes in their lives.

Wait, two different things here. One is people’s theological questions, the other is what I think motivates someone (most people) going OTD.

It’s eye opening when you give someone’s theological questions time of day and eventually you start hearing what they’re really thinking/feeling/going through.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2021, 10:28:05 PM »
I think every. single. person. who ever went of the derech can write the exact same article and choose any one aspect of their life to blame it on.

He chose some random reason that is a hot topic, so more people are reading it. But there's nothing novel or new about a bitter person writing why he chose to live differently than his parents.

He's a decent story teller, builds a nice plotline, antagonist, climax, resolution etc.

He should look into writing historical fiction more often.

Should've merged with the original thread. https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=37134.0
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2021, 11:00:51 PM »
Wait, two different things here. One is people’s theological questions, the other is what I think motivates someone (most people) going OTD.

You're saying that trauma motivates them to go OTD, and while they may have theological questions, it's not a motivating factor. That may be true of some people, but it is by no means universal.

My issue isn't so much with what you mean as much as with how you're expressing it. When someone goes OTD, frum people automatically assume they were molested. Look at some of the posts in the shidduch picture thread. An OTD sibling is red flag for abuse. I experienced it first hand, countless times. The first thing people wanted to know when they found out I wasn't religious was if I was abused. People thought I was lying or in denial when I said no. That question minimized and waved off any sfeikos I may have had or any other factors that led to my decision, as if I had to have been severely traumatized in order to go OTD. Now, I know you don't mean only severe trauma like CSA when you're assigning trauma as the (almost) exclusive motivating factor, but dismissing theological questions as a motivating factor is just wrong. It may not be the exclusive factor for 99% of people who go OTD, but it can't be dismissed.

It’s eye opening when you give someone’s theological questions time of day and eventually you start hearing what they’re really thinking/feeling/going through.

100%. It's equally as eye opening when you give anyone the time of day and start hearing what they're really thinking/feeling/going through, even without the theological questions.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2021, 11:27:33 PM »
100%. It's equally as eye opening when you give anyone the time of day and start hearing what they're really thinking/feeling/going through, even without the theological questions.

On that note, https://anash.org/sometimes-theres-just-more-to-the-story/ OT, but timely.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2021, 11:37:13 PM »
You're saying that trauma motivates them to go OTD, and while they may have theological questions, it's not a motivating factor. That may be true of some people, but it is by no means universal.

My issue isn't so much with what you mean as much as with how you're expressing it. When someone goes OTD, frum people automatically assume they were molested. Look at some of the posts in the shidduch picture thread. An OTD sibling is red flag for abuse. I experienced it first hand, countless times. The first thing people wanted to know when they found out I wasn't religious was if I was abused. People thought I was lying or in denial when I said no. That question minimized and waved off any sfeikos I may have had or any other factors that led to my decision, as if I had to have been severely traumatized in order to go OTD. Now, I know you don't mean only severe trauma like CSA when you're assigning trauma as the (almost) exclusive motivating factor, but dismissing theological questions as a motivating factor is just wrong. It may not be the exclusive factor for 99% of people who go OTD, but it can't be dismissed.

My point was more to exclude theology as the exclusive factor for the 99%. In light of everything you said, much of which I agree with mind you, I still maintain my opinion (I don’t claim to have any objective evidence) that the underpinnings are emotional. I quoted Shais again about traumas, and I had a similar instinctive reaction to yours while hearing it even after he broadened his definition, but he’s onto something. Trauma or not (and I certainly don’t think myopically that it’s 100% CSA), I think even the theological conclusions are emotionally driven in the vast majority of cases, so I see the role of the theological quandary as secondary.

In any case, that’s my opinion, which I’ll gladly discuss further if other angles come up in this thread. Otherwise we can just keep going in circles (:
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2021, 11:43:33 PM »
In some cases (people who I have personally spoken to about their reasons) it was simply that they saw no reason to remain frum. 

Their families were (or at least seemed to be) frum from habit, with no one willing or able to answer their legitimate questions on why things are done a particular way.

They became disillusioned with their teachers and with frumkeit in general, and decided to live a different way.

Many people who leave for these reasons do come back, if they manage to come across someone with real, pashut emuna who is able to answer even a couple of their questions.  Those who leave due to trauma often have a harder time finding their way back.

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2021, 12:31:31 AM »
My point was more to exclude theology as the exclusive factor for the 99%. In light of everything you said, much of which I agree with mind you, I still maintain my opinion (I don’t claim to have any objective evidence) that the underpinnings are emotional. I quoted Shais again about traumas, and I had a similar instinctive reaction to yours while hearing it even after he broadened his definition, but he’s onto something. Trauma or not (and I certainly don’t think myopically that it’s 100% CSA), I think even the theological conclusions are emotionally driven in the vast majority of cases, so I see the role of the theological quandary as secondary.

In any case, that’s my opinion, which I’ll gladly discuss further if other angles come up in this thread. Otherwise we can just keep going in circles (:

We aren't disagreeing on much. However, I don't understand 2 things.1 - why do you believe there is an exclusive factor? Almost all decisions people make have multiple factors. 2 - why do emotions negate, or even impact, the authenticity of theological questions? Very few, if any, of the decisions we make are devoid of emotion. Emotion influencing a thought process and the conclusions thereof doesn't delegitimize the thoughts or the conclusion. If it did, we would have to put an asterisk on virtually every thought and decision any person ever makes as being emotionally driven, and therefore having less merit. IMO, emotions are a given for everything everyone does, save a very select few special individuals. The presence of emotion shouldn't relegate theological quandary to secondary, any more than it makes any other thought "secondary."
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2021, 01:09:01 AM »
1. Read the post you quoted, I used words like underpinning and driven, to me those don’t denote exclusivity.
2. Theological questions are conceptual/intellectual, while emotions do influence anyone’s thought process, undue emotional influence makes it very subjective, and the whole basis of theology is that it is an objective truth, not something one opts into/out of based on how they’re feeling on any given morning.

(I’m not saying there isn’t an aspect of theology/Yiddishkeit that is subjective, but I don’t think that is what is at play over here)
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2021, 05:18:54 AM »
I'll agree that pure theology is very, very rare, but that goes the other way, too. Most frum Jews have a number of factors in their lifestyle choices. That doesn't mean theology doesn't play a significant part in the lifestyle decisions of either frum or non-frum Jews.

I think there’s a nuance here. It’s not really a matter of contrasting the theological strengths of those who are frum vs those who are OTD. I think frum people have an issue with the oft made claim whether expressed or implied, of the heroic truth-at-all-cost sojourn that led people to go OTD in order to be intellectually honest with themselves. That after much soul searching they came to the painful decision that they cannot live a lie.


Sometimes they will articulate philosophy, bible criticism, home in on problems in frum society or with authority figures, but despite their claims it is  largely an outgrowth of far different issues. The reality is often some issue leading to disenchantment, subsequently followed by intellectual substantiation. I have dozens of questions but I’m not running off to McDonald’s. I accept that I don’t have to have all the answers and that the top intellectual minds in academia today and those in the upper echelons of the philosophy departments in the top universities have really lousy answers.

It is rare to hear of someone well adjusted, happy, good relationship with family friends, and community, good environment, no other relationship, addictions, or mental health problems, not a loner, who intellectually came to the conclusion that painful as it is they must give it all up to follow the truth they have discovered in their intellectual quest.

 And the intellectual honesty claim is actually pretty ironic. At best an OTD person is simply swapping out one (to his mind) system of intellectual dishonesty for another. In effect the person is leaving a society that he claims represents intellectually dishonesty on his part for a world that is chaotic, fragmented, largely aimless, and anything but a paragon of intellectual honesty. It espouses equality, but perpetuates poverty and disparity in minority communities. It espouses gender equality and women’s liberation but produces a business world where women are widely harassed and abused and those that aren’t are objectified behind their backs (the me too movement is the tip of the iceberg). It talks about bettering those with gender issues, but ends up with suffering individuals who have ten times the suicide rate of the general population.

It boasts of advances in all areas of science and technology, but produces a society of narcissism, of people too glued to their phones and virtual world to interact with and care for those around them.

It talks intellectualism but operates with mob mentality and a cancel culture that is the antithesis of honest intellectualism.

It’s not like the upper echelons of that society are any better. Read the Chronicle of Higher Education and see what the great minds of today are busy with; petty personal peeves, illogical “white privelege” guilt inducing drives, endless fixation with tenure and kinah, taavah, and kavod, with little focus on the intellectual pursuits that are supposed to be their ambition.

The political class? They have become a caricature of themselves in their dishonesty, hypocrisy, and unfaithfulness to both family and constituents.

There is virtually no way to integrate into that society with giving lip service to ideas and ideals one knows to be intellectually dishonest when in polite company.

So if one comes across frum people dismissing theological claims to substantiate OTD it’s not because every frum person is a deep philosopher and theologian who has arrived at the truth, it’s because the claim of going OTD due to painful intellectual honesty rather than a reaction to personal and life issues or attraction to the freedom and taiva of the OTD lifestyle doesn’t hold water.

 It’s somewhat reminiscent of the story of the guy who is seen sumptuously eating on Taanis Esther. When questioned as to why he was eating he replied that Taanis Esther is to commemorate the salvation from Haman’s attempt to annihilate the Jews, but after some serious introspection he decided that Haman was right, so he is eating.

When he is spotted on purim day eating, drinking, and partying with the rest of them he addresses their curious looks by saying that he did some further introspection and came to the conclusion that the Jews were in the right after all, therefore he is celebrating.

Is he a profound philosopher? Hardly. He is someone who is motivated to eat so he comes up with the moral imperative to do so.

Of course we have to show those who are OTD care and compassion, empathy and understanding, but that doesn’t mean we have to validate their newfound philosophical and theological discoveries.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 05:49:33 AM by yzj »

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2021, 09:07:03 AM »
1. Read the post you quoted, I used words like underpinning and driven, to me those don’t denote exclusivity.

You also used words like, "to exclude theology as the exclusive factor," and you've used it more than once. If we agree that there are multiple factors in every decision people make, then you need to stop trying to exclude something which is irrelevant.

2. Theological questions are conceptual/intellectual, while emotions do influence anyone’s thought process, undue emotional influence makes it very subjective, and the whole basis of theology is that it is an objective truth, not something one opts into/out of based on how they’re feeling on any given morning.

(I’m not saying there isn’t an aspect of theology/Yiddishkeit that is subjective, but I don’t think that is what is at play over here)

Theology is the study of religions, which are belief and value systems. A person's experiences with the practical application of those systems will obviously play a part in their views of those systems. While ideally the study of anything should be purely conceptual and intellectual, that's not the way most people operate, even in academia. Dismissing someone's theological concerns because emotion plays a part in those concerns, while ignoring the fact that emotions play a part in everyone's theological conclusions, is an unfair and dishonest standard. You're looking for pure theology in a world where purity is rarely found.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2021, 09:23:25 AM »
I think there’s a nuance here. It’s not really a matter of contrasting the theological strengths of those who are frum vs those who are OTD. I think frum people have an issue with the oft made claim whether expressed or implied, of the heroic truth-at-all-cost sojourn that led people to go OTD in order to be intellectually honest with themselves. That after much soul searching they came to the painful decision that they cannot live a lie.
.....
It is rare to hear of someone well adjusted, happy, good relationship with family friends, and community, good environment, no other relationship, addictions, or mental health problems, not a loner, who intellectually came to the conclusion that painful as it is they must give it all up to follow the truth they have discovered in their intellectual quest.
......
Of course we have to show those who are OTD care and compassion, empathy and understanding, but that doesn’t mean we have to validate their newfound philosophical and theological discoveries.

You're mixing a lot of issues here, and I want to address them properly, but it will have to wait until a little later. I would like to point out, however, that you're essentially calling people who go OTD a bunch of mentally ill losers who are intellectually dishonest, and we need to treat them with care, compassion, empathy, and understanding, because nebach... such untermentchen. It's no wonder people leave, and it's no wonder people don't come back. No one asked you to validate their discoveries and life choices. Respecting a person's G-d given right to make their own decisions in life is not validating those decisions. That you choose to ignore the questions you have and not go to McDonalds (why anyone would go to McD's is beyond me) doesn't make you intellectually honest or any more stable than anyone who goes OTD.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2021, 09:49:30 AM »
You're mixing a lot of issues here, and I want to address them properly, but it will have to wait until a little later. I would like to point out, however, that you're essentially calling people who go OTD a bunch of mentally ill losers who are intellectually dishonest, and we need to treat them with care, compassion, empathy, and understanding, because nebach... such untermentchen. It's no wonder people leave, and it's no wonder people don't come back. No one asked you to validate their discoveries and life choices. Respecting a person's G-d given right to make their own decisions in life is not validating those decisions. That you choose to ignore the questions you have and not go to McDonalds (why anyone would go to McD's is beyond me) doesn't make you intellectually honest or any more stable than anyone who goes OTD.
I’m addressing one point and one point only. That the idea of OTD being the product of soul searching and intellectual honesty and bravely following the truth no matter where it may take oneself is something that frum people often dismiss and rightfully so.

You may feel that
I'd just like to say, this attitude of dismissing someone's theological issues with Judaism because he must not have done enough research and there must be other reasons he left... it's quite prevalent in the frum community, and it's why people don't come back.
but there’s a legitimate reason why frum people have this attitude. I’m certainly not calling OTD individuals mentally ill or debating the problems in frum society vs the secular lifestyle. The latter is an entirely different discussion. I’m simply addressing the feeling that there are almost always non theological factors at play in a big way.

It’s ok if you want to be defensive and use the
It's no wonder people leave, and it's no wonder people don't come back.
card but it is the truth and to accept that it’s pure theological motivation so as not to offend OTD individuals in the hope of motivating them to come back would be dishonest.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 09:54:35 AM by yzj »

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2021, 10:04:19 AM »
Mods, can we rename the thread to "101 Ways to Say the Same Thing"

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2021, 10:10:22 AM »
 yzj (or anyone) if someone tells you a chasidish vort along the lines of the gematria of something equals something else which signifies something and that something is referring to something else which explains something else (I don't know I'm just giving an example format).

If you were to look at the guy and say sure. Does that come from other outside reasons?
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2021, 10:20:03 AM »
You also used words like, "to exclude theology as the exclusive factor," and you've used it more than once. If we agree that there are multiple factors in every decision people make, then you need to stop trying to exclude something which is irrelevant.

What I'm excluding is it's primacy as a factor, it's the point of our contention and due to perspectives like yours that prioritize its relevance I make the point of downplaying that.

Theology is the study of religions, which are belief and value systems. A person's experiences with the practical application of those systems will obviously play a part in their views of those systems. While ideally the study of anything should be purely conceptual and intellectual, that's not the way most people operate, even in academia. Dismissing someone's theological concerns because emotion plays a part in those concerns, while ignoring the fact that emotions play a part in everyone's theological conclusions, is an unfair and dishonest standard. You're looking for pure theology in a world where purity is rarely found.

No double standard, every lay person makes watered-down assumptions in fields where they aren't well versed, and I'd say in all of those cases that their conclusions/choices don't come from an informed/educated place. You're essentially supporting my point, their choice isn't pure theology. I'm not holding them to any standard, I don't think theology is what's at play here in the first place.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2021, 10:36:28 AM »
yzj (or anyone) if someone tells you a chasidish vort along the lines of the gematria of something equals something else which signifies something and that something is referring to something else which explains something else (I don't know I'm just giving an example format).

If you were to look at the guy and say sure. Does that come from other outside reasons?
Likely, and if the guys claims that he really wasn’t looking to say this sort of vort but careful soul-searching brought him to acknowledge its authenticity so he had no choice but to be intellectually honest and say it and it really has very little to do with his chassidus, friends; those didn’t play a role in his vort I would definitely have a problem with that.