Author Topic: Actual reasons people go OTD  (Read 8099 times)

Online jj1000

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Actual reasons people go OTD
« on: June 14, 2021, 12:15:32 PM »
What other parts of that article are gross overstatements?
I think every. single. person. who ever went of the derech can write the exact same article and choose any one aspect of their life to blame it on.

He chose some random reason that is a hot topic, so more people are reading it. But there's nothing novel or new about a bitter person writing why he chose to live differently than his parents.

He's a decent story teller, builds a nice plotline, antagonist, climax, resolution etc.

He should look into writing historical fiction more often.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2021, 12:17:59 PM »
I think every. single. person. who ever went of the derech can write the exact same article and choose any one aspect of their life to blame it on.

He chose some random reason that is a hot topic, so more people are reading it. But there's nothing novel or new about a bitter person writing why he chose to live differently than his parents.

He's a decent story teller, builds a nice plotline, antagonist, etc.

His two favorite topics (in this context) seem to be the "messianism" and the education his parents have that he was deprived of, both are mentioned in the Harvard article:

https://forward.com/author/yossi-newfield/

I actually don't agree, there are OTD Lubavitchers who don't feel the need to publicize/defend their bitterness with their upbringing.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2021, 12:20:33 PM »

I actually don't agree, there are OTD Lubavitchers who don't feel the need to publicize/defend their bitterness with their upbringing.
I never said otherwise. All I said is, that they can if they wanted to...And that's not limited to Chabad.

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Offline AsherO

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2021, 12:35:17 PM »
I never said otherwise. All I said is, that they can if they wanted to...And that's not limited to Chabad.

I reread what you wrote and what you're saying is true. The only thing I'd qualify is that not everyone's stated reason is their true/only reason. Bullying, neglect, abuse, and family-of-origin issues are oftentimes significant factors, though things aren't always presented that way.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2021, 12:36:19 PM »
What is the more realistic number?

I remember hearing 70, but I think even that might be high

ETA: yes, that reads two ways, and both are true.

Online jj1000

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2021, 12:40:05 PM »
The only thing I'd qualify is that not everyone's stated reason is their true/only reason.
Of course, like I said, he should look into writing historical fiction.

Many people go off the derech due to girls, drugs, laziness, etc and come up with huge theological problems with Judaism, belief in G-d, etc, yet at the end of the day it's only to mask what they really want and why they really left.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2021, 12:42:30 PM »
Of course, like I said, he should look into writing historical fiction.

Many people go off the derech due to girls, drugs, laziness, etc and come up with huge theological problems with Judaism, belief in G-d, etc, yet at the end of the day it's only to mask what they really want and why they really left.

IDK, Shais Taub recently suggested (if I understood him correctly) that most (I think he even said all) people go OTD due to some sort of trauma. What you're suggesting is much more mild IMHO.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2021, 12:48:29 PM »
I reread what you wrote and what you're saying is true. The only thing I'd qualify is that not everyone's stated reason is their true/only reason. Bullying, neglect, abuse, and family-of-origin issues are oftentimes significant factors, though things aren't always presented that way.
I would imagine that very few state the real reason, if they are even aware of it.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2021, 12:50:30 PM »
Many people go off the derech due to girls, drugs, laziness, etc and come up with huge theological problems with Judaism, belief in G-d, etc, yet at the end of the day it's only to mask what they really want and why they really left.

The "questions" are really tirutzim. (Based on story with R Chaim Brisker)
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Online jj1000

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2021, 12:52:10 PM »
IDK, Shais Taub recently suggested (if I understood him correctly) that most (I think he even said all) people go OTD due to some sort of trauma. What you're suggesting is much more mild IMHO.
I'm not sure where you are reading all these things in what I'm writing. Sorry if I'm not being clear. I never said anything to the contrary.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2021, 01:56:07 PM »
I'm not sure where you are reading all these things in what I'm writing. Sorry if I'm not being clear. I never said anything to the contrary.

You said:

Many people go off the derech due to girls, drugs, laziness, etc and come up with huge theological problems with Judaism, belief in G-d, etc, yet at the end of the day it's only to mask what they really want and why they really left.

Those bolded parts made me think their OTD status is motivated/driven by desire for what the outside world seems to offer.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2021, 01:58:58 PM »
You said:

Those bolded parts made me think their OTD status is motivated/driven by desire for what the outside world seems to offer.

Why does the entire _______ have to only have one explanation? Silly binary paradigm, where it either is or isn't ______. Some of it was ______, some of it was ______, some of it was _______, and some of it might be other factors that haven't been mentioned.

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Online jj1000

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2021, 02:09:45 PM »
You said:

Those bolded parts made me think their OTD status is motivated/driven by desire for what the outside world seems to offer.

So you are confusing many with most, also extrapolating what etc means based on select previous listed reasons

common mistakes ;)
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2021, 02:40:25 PM »
So you are confusing many with most, also extrapolating what etc means based on select previous listed reasons

common mistakes ;)

No, I'm disagreeing with what you said, not reading my qualification into your words.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2021, 02:44:22 PM »


By and large I agree with Rabbi Taub that most people go OTD for emotional reasons. There are probably some that are healthy emotionally that go OTD for the reasons I understood JJ to be suggesting (not making any inferences as to what etc. meant). For people in the former group, the latter factors exist, but I don't believe they are the cause.

I don't believe there are too many people nowadays who are emotionally stable and not tempted by the outside world (or lazy), who go OTD for purely ideological/theological reasons.
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Offline Euclid

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2021, 03:23:50 PM »
By and large I agree with Rabbi Taub that most people go OTD for emotional reasons. There are probably some that are healthy emotionally that go OTD for the reasons I understood JJ to be suggesting (not making any inferences as to what etc. meant). For people in the former group, the latter factors exist, but I don't believe they are the cause.

I don't believe there are too many people nowadays who are emotionally stable and not tempted by the outside world (or lazy), who go OTD for purely ideological/theological reasons.
@Lurker has strong opinions about this (sorry to ping you ;) )

Offline AsherO

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2021, 03:45:01 PM »
@Lurker has strong opinions about this (sorry to ping you ;) )

Links please? I'm all ears.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2021, 03:50:00 PM »


I don't believe there are too many people nowadays who are emotionally stable and not tempted by the outside world (or lazy), who go OTD for purely ideological/theological reasons.
There is a famous question how it could possibly be that Korach denied the nevuah of Moshe since the Torah says וגם בך יאמינו לעולם. The Steipler answers that it is only referring to people questioning theologically and not people who are using theology to cover their ulterior motives.
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Offline Euclid

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2021, 03:53:24 PM »
Links please? I'm all ears.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=123711.msg2415950#msg2415950

Here's one post - but that thread had discussions about it.

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2021, 07:12:16 PM »
IDK, Shais Taub recently suggested (if I understood him correctly) that most (I think he even said all) people go OTD due to some sort of trauma. What you're suggesting is much more mild IMHO.
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