Actual reasons people go OTD

[M218]

cc @RabbiPesachKrohn @NachmanSeltzer @YoelGold

since this guy would never agree to share himself (I asked him) no point
But as a side point I think whoever “ever” stepped foot into the Ohel or saw the rebbe has a story to tell

I mean except him

Is that why there is no rebbe now?

[zh cohen]

IDK, Shais Taub recently suggested (if I understood him correctly) that most (I think he even said all) people go OTD due to some sort of trauma. What you're suggesting is much more mild IMHO.

I don't think Rabbi Taub means what you think he means when he says "trauma" but maybe he can weigh in. Trauma can be the result of something major, but it can also be caused by a large number of what would otherwise be minor events.

He spoke about it here - https://open.spotify.com/episode/7IKFAHo2R8YKEgt2L7dHSb?si=8fOSngudT5atqOckqpdrPQ&utm_source=copy-link&dl_branch=1

[AsherO]

I don't think Rabbi Taub means what you think he means when he says "trauma" but maybe he can weigh in. Trauma can be the result of something major, but it can also be caused by a large number of what would otherwise be minor events.

He spoke about it here - https://open.spotify.com/episode/7IKFAHo2R8YKEgt2L7dHSb?si=8fOSngudT5atqOckqpdrPQ&utm_source=copy-link&dl_branch=1

He made this qualification himself, defining trauma broadly like you did, and I did the same by listing bullying, neglect etc. upthread.

[Definitions]

When people say XYZ is the reason people go OTD. How do you define OTD?

[Definitions]

I hadn't read the piece when I saw your question, but I just skimmed through it. There is a substantial amount of stuff that is quite easily refutable or misrepresented. Ironic that the author's blindspots lead him to incorrect conclusions in a piece about where Lubavitchers' "wrongful" beliefs will lead them.

As an outsider skimming through it nothing stuck out considerably to me. What are some stuff that you had in mind that are easily refutable/misrepresented?

[M218]

When people say XYZ is the reason people go OTD. How do you define OTD?

in my opinion OTD means, a person that rebels from their parents way.

[Definitions]

in my opinion OTD means, a person that rebels from their parents way.

Whether openly or quietly (relative to the world)?

[M218]

Whether openly or quietly (relative to the world)?

Do you mean, Loud or Quite?

[Definitions]

Do you mean, Loud or Quite?

I'm not sure what you mean. I meant to say openly as in everyone can see that the person is OTD vs not openly.

[Lurker]

@Lurker has strong opinions about this (sorry to ping you )

You're not so sorry, but that's ok.

He may not be wrong. Trauma is a very, very large umbrella.

I don't really disagree with Rabbi Taub. We live in a world where emotions rule all, and it's very hard to find people with purely theological reasons for going OTD. They do exist, but it's not the driving force behind the vast majority of people who leave. That's not to say people with traumas don't also have theological concerns.

[M218]

I'm not sure what you mean. I meant to say openly as in everyone can see that the person is OTD vs not openly.

oh I thought you mean aggression or regular.
For your question the answer is both, and I personally think the quiet one is worse. Because they are usually very infectious.

[AsherO]

When people say XYZ is the reason people go OTD. How do you define OTD?

Username checks out

[M218]

You're not so sorry, but that's ok.

I don't really disagree with Rabbi Taub. We live in a world where emotions rule all, and it's very hard to find people with purely theological reasons for going OTD. They do exist, but it's not the driving force behind the vast majority of people who leave. That's not to say people with traumas don't also have theological concerns.

my “like” is for the second part.

[Lurker]

in my opinion OTD means, a person that rebels from their parents way.

This would also include someone who adopted slight (or major) changes to hadracha or hashkafa which are still firmly within "the derech," so I don't think this is what most people mean.

When people say XYZ is the reason people go OTD. How do you define OTD?

No longer shomer Torah u'mitzvos. Quiet, loud, makes no difference other than public perception.

[AsherO]

That's not to say people with traumas don't also have theological concerns.

Yes, but even those theological concerns are of an emotional nature and/or relate to their traumas, e.g. where was G-d in my suffering, how could G-d allow it to happen, why do bad things happen to good people, if religion is supposed to bring out the best in people and have them follow in G-d’s ways, why are some so-called religious people (even popular Rabbis) evil? and other similar questions.

[M218]

This would also include someone who adopted slight (or major) changes to hadracha or hashkafa which are still firmly within "the derech," so I don't think this is what most people mean.

I said rebels not “disagrees”
Maybe my definitions are wrong @Definitions could you help me?

[Lurker]

Yes, but even those theological concerns are of an emotional nature and/or relate to their traumas, e.g. where was G-d in my suffering, how could G-d allow it to happen, why do bad things happen to good people, if religion is supposed to bring out the best in people and have them follow in G-d’s ways, why are some so-called religious people (even popular Rabbis) evil? and other similar questions.

This I disagree with. Judaism is based on Emunah, and when you take the underlying Emunah away, one can have legitimate theological questions about the origins of the world in general, and Yiddishkeit in particular (mesorah, etc.). That's not to say there aren't answers to many (if not all) of those questions, but when traumas have pushed people to a certain place, they don't always seek out the answers to those questions in the right places.

[Lurker]

I said rebels not “disagrees”
Maybe my definitions are wrong @Definitions could you help me?

If someone from a prominent Yeshivish family becomes a Chossid (or vice versa), they are leaving the derech of their parents, but not Derech HaTorah. It can be viewed as "rebelling" or "disagreeing" or whatever term you want to use, but as long as someone is shomer Torah u'mitzvos, I don't think the OTD label applies to them.

[Definitions]

I said rebels not “disagrees”
Maybe my definitions are wrong @Definitions could you help me?

Funny thing is Lurker literally pulled the words out of my mouth. But yes I figured you'd want to differentiate those two

[Definitions]

oh I thought you mean aggression or regular.
For your question the answer is both, and I personally think the quiet one is worse. Because they are usually very infectious.

Got it. Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page when explaining the reason for something.