Actual reasons people go OTD

[Lurker]

I’m addressing one point and one point only. That the idea of OTD being the product of soul searching and intellectual honesty and bravely following the truth no matter where it may take oneself is something that frum people often dismiss and rightfully so.

You may feel thatbut there’s a legitimate reason why frum people have this attitude. I’m certainly not calling OTD individuals mentally ill or debating the problems in frum society vs the secular lifestyle. The latter is an entirely different discussion. I’m simply addressing the feeling that there are almost always non theological factors at play in a big way.

It’s ok if you want to be defensive and use the card but it is the truth and to accept that it’s pure theological motivation so as not to offend OTD individuals in the hope of motivating them to come back would be dishonest.

What I'm excluding is it's primacy as a factor, it's the point of our contention and due to perspectives like yours that prioritize its relevance I make the point of downplaying that.

No double standard, every lay person makes watered-down assumptions in fields where they aren't well versed, and I'd say in all of those cases that their conclusions/choices don't come from an informed/educated place. You're essentially supporting my point, their choice isn't pure theology. I'm not holding them to any standard, I don't think theology is what's at play here in the first place.

You guys are both making the same straw man argument. Virtually no one who leaves claims theology as the exclusive factor. The arguments you are making with what I've written completely ignore the fact that I claim there are multiple factors in almost every person leaving, and that I don't believe 99% of the people who leave claim theology as the exclusive or primary factor. Even the article that started this conversation brings multiple issues the author had with the lifestyle. Theology is most certainly a factor, and when the theological questions aren't answered in a satisfactory manner, people find no reason to continue living that lifestyle. That in no way, shape, or form makes theology the exclusive reason for leaving, but by minimizing the role theology plays in their leaving to an aside, you reinforce their conclusions that the theology isn't strong enough to overcome the other issues they had.

This isn't exclusive to the 2 of you. As @yzj pointed out, it is possibly the most prevalent attitude in the frum world today. We ignore the big picture, and marginalize the people who leave by misconstruing what they are telling us about why they left by focusing on one aspect of what they are saying, which leads us to violating of almost all of the false arguments listed here: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116232.msg2244499#msg2244499

[AsherO]

You guys are both making the same straw man argument. Virtually no one who leaves claims theology as the exclusive factor. The arguments you are making with what I've written completely ignore the fact that I claim there are multiple factors in almost every person leaving, and that I don't believe 99% of the people who leave claim theology as the exclusive or primary factor. Even the article that started this conversation brings multiple issues the author had with the lifestyle. Theology is most certainly a factor, and when the theological questions aren't answered in a satisfactory manner, people find no reason to continue living that lifestyle. That in no way, shape, or form makes theology the exclusive reason for leaving, but by minimizing the role theology plays in their leaving to an aside, you reinforce their conclusions that the theology isn't strong enough to overcome the other issues they had.

This isn't exclusive to the 2 of you. As @yzj pointed out, it is possibly the most prevalent attitude in the frum world today. We ignore the big picture, and marginalize the people who leave by misconstruing what they are telling us about why they left by focusing on one aspect of what they are saying, which leads us to violating of almost all of the false arguments listed here: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116232.msg2244499#msg2244499

I don't appreciate being lumped in with "prevalent frum attitudes", I'm stating my opinion so please address me. I've stated several times already that I find theology to be less of a factor than you seem to consider it, you want to disagree you're welcome to.

For the record, I don't think theology (alone) has all the answers to address people's emotional problems. It really irks me when unqualified Rabbis think they can play psychiatrist, psychologist, addictions specialist, or other MH roles to people with serious emotional struggles/issues.

[Definitions]

Likely, and if the guys claims that he really wasn’t looking to say this sort of vort but careful soul-searching brought him to acknowledge its authenticity so he had no choice but to be intellectually honest and say it and it really has very little to do with his chassidus, friends; those didn’t play a role in his vort I would definitely have a problem with that.

Wait I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying.

My question was on the guy listening. The guy listening didn't believe the vort. Is that not believing the vort coming from outside influences?

[EliJelly]

Frum people:
"See this OTD guy nebach, he had a terrible upbringing and was probably abused too"

 And if the guy isn't really that nebach, they'll say;
 "This sheygetz couldn't resist and succumbed to shmutz, scary world out there!"

OTD people:
"I was always that outside the box thinking person, and I wasn't afraid to follow the truth wherever it lead to"

[dasmo801]

OTD people:
"I was always that outside the box thinking person, and I wasn't afraid to follow the truth wherever it lead to"

Often, even at the expense of severely harming my loving, warm, relationship with my spouse, children, parents, siblings and many of my friends and acquaintances. Even at the expense of discarding the lifestyle of my parents, grandparents etc.

Because i'm a truth follower.

I think this is the point that many of us have trouble understanding.

[Lurker]

I don't appreciate being lumped in with "prevalent frum attitudes", I'm stating my opinion so please address me. I've stated several times already that I find theology to be less of a factor than you seem to consider it, you want to disagree you're welcome to.

For the record, I don't think theology (alone) has all the answers to address people's emotional problems. It really irks me when unqualified Rabbis think they can play psychiatrist, psychologist, addictions specialist, or other MH roles to people with serious emotional struggles/issues.

Let's say I have 100 problems with the frum way of life. Some of those are theological. If my theological questions aren't addressed, I have no reason to deal with the other issues, as theology is the foundation for that way of life. That doesn't make theology the primary reason I'm leaving; it's a general discontent with the lifestyle, with more than one factor. However, it does make theology extremely relevant to my leaving, and possibly the primary issue that needs to be addressed.

Take Covid, for example. I may have issues with masks, social distancing, government mandates, vaccines, and 100 other things. My trauma from these things may have caused me to doubt the things doctors or politicians say, but if I now have questions about whether Covid is even dangerous, your arguments regarding the other hundred things don't matter. You need to answer my questions about the dangers of Covid before addressing any of the other issues. I'm going to present 100 issues I have, and Covid not being as dangerous as people claim will be among them. Dismissing my questions about Covid as being rooted in my trauma or my desire to live a "normal" life only reinforces my conclusion that Covid isn't dangerous and the whole thing is a sham. It doesn't need to be the exclusive reason for my views, or even the primary reason for my decisions, but it is now a solid foundation upon which my opinions stand. If I don't get suitable answers to those questions, everything else is irrelevant.

I may have many reasons for not conforming to protocol, either medical or theological, but you cannot minimize or dismiss foundational issues just because there are other factors and reasons for my viewpoints.

[whacked1]

Often, even at the expense of severely harming my loving, warm, relationship with my spouse, children, parents, siblings and many of my friends and acquaintances. Even at the expense of discarding the lifestyle of my parents, grandparents etc.

Because i'm a truth follower.

I think this is the point that many of us have trouble understanding.

Just curious if you have the same reaction when (if ) you watch an amish documentary about someone leaving their community to pursue a "regular" life.

[Lurker]

Often, even at the expense of severely harming my loving, warm, relationship with my spouse, children, parents, siblings and many of my friends and acquaintances. Even at the expense of discarding the lifestyle of my parents, grandparents etc.

Because i'm a truth follower.

I think this is the point that many of us have trouble understanding.

Do you know how often this is the case when someone becomes a ba'al teshuva? We just accept that their need to live a true Torah life the way G-d intended is worth the sacrifice of those other things. Why can't we apply the same understanding to people who have different beliefs?

[AsherO]

Let's say I have 100 problems with the frum way of life. Some of those are theological. If my theological questions aren't addressed, I have no reason to deal with the other issues, as theology is the foundation for that way of life. That doesn't make theology the primary reason I'm leaving; it's a general discontent with the lifestyle, with more than one factor. However, it does make theology extremely relevant to my leaving, and possibly the primary issue that needs to be addressed.

Take Covid, for example. I may have issues with masks, social distancing, government mandates, vaccines, and 100 other things. My trauma from these things may have caused me to doubt the things doctors or politicians say, but if I now have questions about whether Covid is even dangerous, your arguments regarding the other hundred things don't matter. You need to answer my questions about the dangers of Covid before addressing any of the other issues. I'm going to present 100 issues I have, and Covid not being as dangerous as people claim will be among them. Dismissing my questions about Covid as being rooted in my trauma or my desire to live a "normal" life only reinforces my conclusion that Covid isn't dangerous and the whole thing is a sham. It doesn't need to be the exclusive reason for my views, or even the primary reason for my decisions, but it is now a solid foundation upon which my opinions stand. If I don't get suitable answers to those questions, everything else is irrelevant.

I may have many reasons for not conforming to protocol, either medical or theological, but you cannot minimize or dismiss foundational issues just because there are other factors and reasons for my viewpoints.

This is where we disagree. The foundation for FFB’s peoples way of life (IMHO) is that they were raised that way, not theology at all.

[Lurker]

This is where we disagree. The foundation for FFB’s peoples way of life (IMHO) is that they were raised that way, not theology at all.

On a day-to-day level, maybe, but the foundation for the frum lifestlye is the theology. We have people who have asked the questions and answered them, and while we may not ask all of the questions ourselves or bother answering the questions we do have, what keeps people frum is the reliance on the theological foundation being sound and true. If we didn't believe in the Torah, there would be no Judaism. And that's not just on a rabbinic level. This applies to the vast majority of the people. The other reasons to stay frum aren't strong enough to endure for so long.

[dasmo801]

Do you know how often this is the case when someone becomes a ba'al teshuva?

No I don't but I would be very curious to know.

In general, I don't think people make major shifts in their lifestyles absent some sort of crisis. And that's even a shift that doesn't include a price tag of severed relationships and broken hearts. Obese people don't diet, people struggling financially don't relocate or leave their comfort zone etc, until some sort of crisis motivates them enough. All of our emotional attachments provide us with a certain amount of satisfaction, until the competing force outweighs that satisfaction most people will not make major lifestyle adjustments.   

[AsherO]

On a day-to-day level, maybe, but the foundation for the frum lifestlye is the theology. We have people who have asked the questions and answered them, and while we may not ask all of the questions ourselves or bother answering the questions we do have, what keeps people frum is the reliance on the theological foundation being sound and true. If we didn't believe in the Torah, there would be no Judaism. And that's not just on a rabbinic level. This applies to the vast majority of the people. The other reasons to stay frum aren't strong enough to endure for so long.

You wanna talk about the collective and what keeps things going? I think that's a separate discussion from the discussion about individuals going OTD and their motivations.

Obviously if we diluted the frumkeit (and yes, theology) of the community, the iceberg would slowly drift of and melt, and no frum people would be left. To extend that abstract analogy in an ill-fitting way to an individual, it isn't geophysics that keeps one morsel of the iceberg cold, it's the proximity to the iceberg that keeps them frozen (even if the iceberg as a whole is cooled by geophysics).

To say it differently, and I believe I touched on it upthread, there's a difference between our collective emunah which is objective (what I call Theology with a capital T) and our subjective emunah which is individualized.

[Lurker]

No I don't but I would be very curious to know.

Everything you said about going OTD happens to BTs, too. Not only do we not question them, we applaud them and put them on a pedestal. Then we wonder why people with values different than ours do the same to people who go OTD.

In general, I don't think people make major shifts in their lifestyles absent some sort of crisis. And that's even a shift that doesn't include a price tag of severed relationships and broken hearts. Obese people don't diet, people struggling financially don't relocate or leave their comfort zone etc, until some sort of crisis motivates them enough. All of our emotional attachments provide us with a certain amount of satisfaction, until the competing force outweighs that satisfaction most people will not make major lifestyle adjustments.

We are constantly evolving and tweaking our actions and lifestyles to further optimize our situations. People relocate for better jobs all the time without facing poverty. People diet and exercise to get healthier even without major negative health events. People take on major chumros to improve in their avodas Hashem without being faced by impending doom. Discontent doesn't need to devolve into a full blown crisis, and it's not even a bad thing. Crisis can be a catalyst for change, for sure, but so can self-improvement or the simple desire to be happier with life.

That said, I don't want to be presumptuous, but you appear to be coming from a place of someone who is very happy with his life and has very satisfactory emotional relationships. If this is true, ashrecha. Unfortunately, while this is the ideal for life on this earth, it is not the reality for many, many, many people. Many people live in a constant state of crisis (major or minor), dealing issues with like money, health, family, friendships, community, work, etc. Sometimes, drastic changes need to be made, and others get hurt. That doesn't automatically make the changes bad or unnecessary.

[Lurker]

You wanna talk about the collective and what keeps things going? I think that's a separate discussion from the discussion about individuals going OTD and their motivations.

Obviously if we diluted the frumkeit (and yes, theology) of the community, the iceberg would slowly drift of and melt, and no frum people would be left. To extend that abstract analogy in an ill-fitting way to an individual, it isn't geophysics that keeps one morsel of the iceberg cold, it's the proximity to the iceberg that keeps them frozen (even if the iceberg as a whole is cooled by geophysics).

To say it differently, and I believe I touched on it upthread, there's a difference between our collective emunah which is objective (what I call Theology with a capital T) and our subjective emunah which is individualized.

All of this doesn't change the role theology (or Theology) plays as a foundation for our lifestyles. When people lose that foundation (with a 'T' or a 't') through questions which are minimized or aren't answered, the other issues they have for leaving don't matter anymore.

[cmey]

Let's say I have 100 problems with the frum way of life. Some of those are theological. If my theological questions aren't addressed, I have no reason to deal with the other issues, as theology is the foundation for that way of life. That doesn't make theology the primary reason I'm leaving; it's a general discontent with the lifestyle, with more than one factor. However, it does make theology extremely relevant to my leaving, and possibly the primary issue that needs to be addressed.

Take Covid, for example. I may have issues with masks, social distancing, government mandates, vaccines, and 100 other things. My trauma from these things may have caused me to doubt the things doctors or politicians say, but if I now have questions about whether Covid is even dangerous, your arguments regarding the other hundred things don't matter. You need to answer my questions about the dangers of Covid before addressing any of the other issues. I'm going to present 100 issues I have, and Covid not being as dangerous as people claim will be among them. Dismissing my questions about Covid as being rooted in my trauma or my desire to live a "normal" life only reinforces my conclusion that Covid isn't dangerous and the whole thing is a sham. It doesn't need to be the exclusive reason for my views, or even the primary reason for my decisions, but it is now a solid foundation upon which my opinions stand. If I don't get suitable answers to those questions, everything else is irrelevant.

I may have many reasons for not conforming to protocol, either medical or theological, but you cannot minimize or dismiss foundational issues just because there are other factors and reasons for my viewpoints.

How many OTD individuals had those theological issues while they were still content and how many “discovered” them when they already had motivations to want to leave? If a frum boy goes to Yale and lives in a coed dorm with a pretty shikze as his roommate and then tells his family during spring break that his philosophy professor opened his eyes and he has a moral imperative to follow the truth and leave the fold that’s not his mind talking. That’s a certain part of his anatomy talking.

I think the timeline is very relevant when an OTD individual has issues with being frum or a part of his community and those issues subsequently motivate him to search. Where is his newfound philosophy coming from?

[AsherO]

All of this doesn't change the role theology (or Theology) plays as a foundation for our lifestyles. When people lose that foundation (with a 'T' or a 't') through questions which are minimized or aren't answered, the other issues they have for leaving don't matter anymore.

Maybe it's a chicken/egg problem, I haven't thought it through enough, but I would say it the other way around.

Emotions and our psychological makeup pay a foundational role in our lifestyle choices. When people lose that foundation, their lifestyle might change and the other issues they have  (like theology) don't matter anymore.

[ckmk47]

On a day-to-day level, maybe, but the foundation for the frum lifestlye is the theology. We have people who have asked the questions and answered them, and while we may not ask all of the questions ourselves or bother answering the questions we do have, what keeps people frum is the reliance on the theological foundation being sound and true. If we didn't believe in the Torah, there would be no Judaism. And that's not just on a rabbinic level. This applies to the vast majority of the people. The other reasons to stay frum aren't strong enough to endure for so long.

I was just ready to enter this discussion with approximately the same point.
Frum people, especially teenagers, need to be engaged with Yiddishkeit.  It needs to be real and relevant to them.  Not just learning the "rules" - halacha or intellectual stimulation  - gemara.
They have to feel a connection to their creator, to the underpinnings of the rules. They have to want to do mitzvos not just be obligated to do so.


Learning chassidus is one way to do so, but Lubavitch is not immune to OTD, so obviously that's not enough or not exclusively the way to reach people.

[Lurker]

How many OTD individuals had those theological issues while they were still content and how many “discovered” them when they already had motivations to want to leave? If a frum boy goes to Yale and lives in a coed dorm with a pretty shikze as his roommate and then tells his family during spring break that his philosophy professor opened his eyes and he has a moral imperative to follow the truth and leave the fold that’s not his mind talking. That’s a certain part of his anatomy talking.

I think the timeline is very relevant when an OTD individual has issues with being frum or a part of his community and those issues subsequently motivate him to search. Where is his newfound philosophy coming from?

If a frum boy goes to Yale and lives in a co-ed dorm, how frum was he to begin with? What theological foundations did he have that led him to make that initial decision to live there?

I think most frum people have theological questions. Sometimes we ask them, and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we are satisfied with the answers, and sometimes we aren't. Some of the people who aren't satisfied with the answers look for answers elsewhere, and some people shrug it off, rationalizing that there are great, smart people who say this is the right thing to do, so this is what we do.

Sometimes, there are circumstances in our lives which change the way we think, change our priorities, or bring to the forefront issues which we had previously sidelined. Sometimes, our circumstances or desires get the best of us, and we deflect to "bigger, existential issues" so that we won't have to face our other problems, shortcomings, or weaknesses. Ultimately, regardless of the timeline or the catalyst, if we dismiss, diminish, delegitimize, marginalize, or simply fail to answer the questions, these people have no foundation to return to. Everything about their previous lives now becomes a house of cards, built on a foundation of sand. It becomes the reason they aren't frum. Furthermore, it sends a message to those who are still frum and have the same questions that their legitimate questions don't have answers, and that if they choose to leave, they will be marginalized. Their families, friends, and communities will blame a boogyman, and say, "they must have had trauma."

In short, if our theology is sound, we should have the answers to their questions. Where they got the questions or what inspired them to ask them shouldn't matter. We shouldn't have to resort to the blame game and "timelines" instead of answering the questions.

[Lurker]

Emotions and our psychological makeup pay a foundational role in our lifestyle choices. When people lose that foundation, their lifestyle might change and the other issues they have  (like theology) don't matter anymore.

Which is why we put such an extraordinary emphasis on mesorah and limmud haTorah. Emotions change constantly. If anyone's foundation is purely emotional, it's unsustainable. Deflecting to blame other emotional reasons for leaving instead of giving non-emotional answers with which to create a foundation just reinforces the feeling that there is no foundation, and that their conclusions are fully justified.

[AsherO]

Which is why we put such an extraordinary emphasis on mesorah and limmud haTorah. Emotions change constantly. If anyone's foundation is purely emotional, it's unsustainable. Deflecting to blame other emotional reasons for leaving instead of giving non-emotional answers with which to create a foundation just reinforces the feeling that there is no foundation, and that their conclusions are fully justified.

The way I see it our human foundation is more primal/basic, kind of like derech eretz kadma latorah. Words like purely and instead denote one-or-the-other thinking, which made it hard to counter your point without resorting to that myself.