Author Topic: Actual reasons people go OTD  (Read 8098 times)

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #100 on: June 16, 2021, 03:04:08 PM »
The way I see it our human foundation is more primal/basic, kind of like derech eretz kadma latorah. Words like purely and instead denote one-or-the-other thinking, which made it hard to counter your point without resorting to that myself.

You're right - I shouldn't use absolute terms.

I'm not sure what you mean by "human foundation." If you mean common principles of global humanity, I don't think they exist, as the values systems are constantly changing and vary between cultures. If you mean human nature, our theological foundations require us to overcome some of our primal/basic instincts. If you mean something else entirely, please elaborate.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #101 on: June 16, 2021, 04:30:33 PM »
Often, even at the expense of severely harming my loving, warm, relationship with my spouse, children, parents, siblings and many of my friends and acquaintances. Even at the expense of discarding the lifestyle of my parents, grandparents etc.

Because i'm a truth follower.

I think this is the point that many of us have trouble understanding.
If the person made the move out of being a truth follower then it would need to involve there having been extensive research done before making that move. If the person did not do such research by going through the writings of the many theologians who wrote extensively about these topics on all ends of the spectrum, that undermines the argument that it was done out of an unwavering quest for truth.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #102 on: June 16, 2021, 04:38:02 PM »
If the person made the move out of being a truth follower then it would need to involve there having been extensive research done before making that move. If the person did not do such research by going through the writings of the many theologians who wrote extensively about these topics on all ends of the spectrum, that undermines the argument that it was done out of an unwavering quest for truth.

This narrative is BS. Most people who go OTD are not on "an unwavering quest for truth," and they don't claim to be. They grew up in a restrictive lifestyle. For whatever reason, they questioned the way they were raised, and they weren't given satisfactory answers, so they left. And you know what? That they left "so easily" when they weren't given answers instead of becoming "unwavering seekers of truth" is on us. We raised them. If the truth doesn't matter enough to us to instill it properly in our children, why would we expect it to matter so much to them that they should go on a quest in search of it?
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Offline cmey

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #103 on: June 16, 2021, 04:40:25 PM »
If a frum boy goes to Yale and lives in a co-ed dorm, how frum was he to begin with? What theological foundations did he have that led him to make that initial decision to live there?

I think most frum people have theological questions. Sometimes we ask them, and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we are satisfied with the answers, and sometimes we aren't. Some of the people who aren't satisfied with the answers look for answers elsewhere, and some people shrug it off, rationalizing that there are great, smart people who say this is the right thing to do, so this is what we do.

Sometimes, there are circumstances in our lives which change the way we think, change our priorities, or bring to the forefront issues which we had previously sidelined. Sometimes, our circumstances or desires get the best of us, and we deflect to "bigger, existential issues" so that we won't have to face our other problems, shortcomings, or weaknesses. Ultimately, regardless of the timeline or the catalyst, if we dismiss, diminish, delegitimize, marginalize, or simply fail to answer the questions, these people have no foundation to return to. Everything about their previous lives now becomes a house of cards, built on a foundation of sand. It becomes the reason they aren't frum. Furthermore, it sends a message to those who are still frum and have the same questions that their legitimate questions don't have answers, and that if they choose to leave, they will be marginalized. Their families, friends, and communities will blame a boogyman, and say, "they must have had trauma."

In short, if our theology is sound, we should have the answers to their questions. Where they got the questions or what inspired them to ask them shouldn't matter. We shouldn't have to resort to the blame game and "timelines" instead of answering the questions.

Many if not most theological questions actually don’t have definitive answers. An atheist will look at the infinite universe and say I see there is no G-d. A believer will see G-d everywhere. It is impossible for the human mind to comprehend existence before time-space or the contradiction between G-d knowledge and free will. It is impossible for a human being who’s gaze covers a fraction of the billions of people on the planet and a tiny slice of time to comprehend why bad things happen to good people. There are hundreds of more examples.

On the flip side, ask an atheist how the laws of gravity and energy that governed the Big Bang were established or what caused the collision after endless nothingness where there was no Big Bang or the source of the first building blocks of life agains infinitesimal odds and he will have to acknowledge that there is a “leap of faith” he has to take.

Someone who wants to believe will acknowledge the limitations of the human mind and accept that he doesn’t and isn’t meant to have all the answers while someone looking for an out will use the same questions as justification for doing what he is gravitating towards in any case. This is why a timeline makes all the difference.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 04:53:42 PM by cmey »

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2021, 04:43:31 PM »
You're right - I shouldn't use absolute terms.

I'm not sure what you mean by "human foundation." If you mean common principles of global humanity, I don't think they exist, as the values systems are constantly changing and vary between cultures. If you mean human nature, our theological foundations require us to overcome some of our primal/basic instincts. If you mean something else entirely, please elaborate.

I mean that our emotional development starts sooner than our cognitive theological development. While I believe in the inherent virtue of exposing newborns to Torah, Mitzvos, and Yiddishkeit, I don’t necessarily correlate that with fortitude to confront cognitive theological questions later on in life, I would say the endurance and fortitude of those early religious experiences would depend a lot on the person’s emotional development.

And yes, I do believe there are objective human character strengths, I don’t think they vary all that much from one society to another, even if the way they’re described/categorized changes in each society.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2021, 04:55:48 PM »
This narrative is BS. Most people who go OTD are not on "an unwavering quest for truth," and they don't claim to be. They grew up in a restrictive lifestyle. For whatever reason, they questioned the way they were raised, and they weren't given satisfactory answers, so they left. And you know what? That they left "so easily" when they weren't given answers instead of becoming "unwavering seekers of truth" is on us. We raised them. If the truth doesn't matter enough to us to instill it properly in our children, why would we expect it to matter so much to them that they should go on a quest in search of it?
that was a response not a stand alone statement.

From what I have seen there are 3 primary ways someone goes OTD. The first is trauma of varying degrees. The second is getting involved with bad friends (also varying degrees). The third are those who drift off. A 4th option is that the theology led them them to the feel that one belief set is more valid than the other. This 4th option can only be through a quest of trying to research the truth and finding it to be different than what he originally assumed. This is rare if ever. You seem to be primarily dealing with the 3rd group. These are people who for various reasons never felt a real connection to Judaism in theology or practice. They don't really have a firm belief in what is true or untrue, but were not incentivised to keep to the many restrictions of religion and just floated away from it. This isn't due to theology but rather due to a void of it. I guess some may get influenced by some other religion or go to India to find meaning or the like, but that is a second step to their general lack of connection. Such cases are definitely a shortcoming in their upbringing. Many people have expressed being given a feeling of not being allowed to ask. I cannot speak to that because I did not experience it. No matter which yeshiva I was in, I was encouraged to ask questions and search for answers. For the vast majority of them I found the answers. this led me to feeling that if I do not have an answer to a specific question it is more likely due to my lack of understanding than anything else.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #106 on: June 17, 2021, 03:11:02 AM »
I would imagine that very few state the real reason, if they are even aware of it.
Couldn't have said it better.

P.S. I recently got into Carl Jung, he's so fascinating. You ever get into it? Idk y, ur comment just stuck out like someone who is into his stuff would initially react..

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #107 on: June 17, 2021, 03:18:25 AM »
that was a response not a stand alone statement.

From what I have seen there are 3 primary ways someone goes OTD. The first is trauma of varying degrees. The second is getting involved with bad friends (also varying degrees). The third are those who drift off. A 4th option is that the theology led them them to the feel that one belief set is more valid than the other. This 4th option can only be through a quest of trying to research the truth and finding it to be different than what he originally assumed. This is rare if ever. You seem to be primarily dealing with the 3rd group. These are people who for various reasons never felt a real connection to Judaism in theology or practice. They don't really have a firm belief in what is true or untrue, but were not incentivised to keep to the many restrictions of religion and just floated away from it. This isn't due to theology but rather due to a void of it. I guess some may get influenced by some other religion or go to India to find meaning or the like, but that is a second step to their general lack of connection. Such cases are definitely a shortcoming in their upbringing. Many people have expressed being given a feeling of not being allowed to ask. I cannot speak to that because I did not experience it. No matter which yeshiva I was in, I was encouraged to ask questions and search for answers. For the vast majority of them I found the answers. this led me to feeling that if I do not have an answer to a specific question it is more likely due to my lack of understanding than anything else.
Would Spinoza be a good example of Reason 4?

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #108 on: June 17, 2021, 11:39:58 AM »
Would Spinoza be a good example of Reason 4?
There was definitely trauma in the mix there.
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Offline cmey

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #109 on: June 17, 2021, 02:04:08 PM »
He did lose his mother at age 6 and his older brother and father when he was young and then got into a court battle with his surviving sister so he definitely did not have a happy tranquil existence. In  addition to the fact that even the teachers in his Talmud Torah were largely educated in the Roman catholic schools and there is a doubt as to how much authentic chinuch he actually received. He also fell in with a bad crowd as a teenager when he went into business and was surrounded by friends from various religions who were doubters and Bible critics and had a huge influence on him.

One thing that does stand out is he did not go OTD in order to enjoy a better life physically he was willing to suffer for what he thought was the truth. That’s certainly more compelling than an OTD individual who claims he is seeking only the truth but is casting aside a lifestyle that appears to restrictive for one that at least has the allure of freedom and pleasure.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 02:25:47 PM by cmey »

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #110 on: June 17, 2021, 02:08:22 PM »
He did lose his mother at age 6 and his older brother and father when he was young and then got into a court battle with his surviving sister so he definitely did not have a happy tranquil existence. In  addition to the fact that even the teachers in his Talmud Torah were largely educated in the Roman catholic schools and there is a doubt as to how much authentic chinuch he actually received. He also fell in with a bad crowd as a teenager when he went into business and was surrounded by friends from various religions who were doubters and Bible critics and had a huge influence on him.

Sounds like this guy nebach ticked the "all of the above" option...
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #111 on: June 17, 2021, 02:37:26 PM »
that was a response not a stand alone statement.

I know, and my comment was on the narrative of "truth seekers" in general. I probably should have articulated my issue better.

From what I have seen there are 3 primary ways someone goes OTD. The first is trauma of varying degrees. The second is getting involved with bad friends (also varying degrees). The third are those who drift off. A 4th option is that the theology led them them to the feel that one belief set is more valid than the other. This 4th option can only be through a quest of trying to research the truth and finding it to be different than what he originally assumed. This is rare if ever. You seem to be primarily dealing with the 3rd group. These are people who for various reasons never felt a real connection to Judaism in theology or practice. They don't really have a firm belief in what is true or untrue, but were not incentivised to keep to the many restrictions of religion and just floated away from it. This isn't due to theology but rather due to a void of it. I guess some may get influenced by some other religion or go to India to find meaning or the like, but that is a second step to their general lack of connection. Such cases are definitely a shortcoming in their upbringing.

Without going too much further down this rabbit hole, I believe that very rarely is it only one of the 4 categories you describe. It's most often combinations of two, three, or even all 4 reasons, and likely a few more that weren't mentioned. This is what I've been trying to clarify with my posts. When you're diagnosing people who went OTD as a post mortem, trying to figure out how they got to where they are, pointing to a single cause is usually wrong and almost always unproductive. When trying to analyze why many of them point to theological issues, when we know that there are very, very few cases of people leaving for purely theological reasons, we have to acknowledge that reasons 1, 2, or 3 all lead to theological questions, and if the answers aren't forthcoming or are unsatisfactory (for whatever reason), theology becomes "the" reason. It's important to understand that when an OTD person says this, they truly do mean it and they may not be lying. I may have had trauma, or hung out with a bad crowd, or just slipped, but if my questions had been answered before I completely jumped shipped, it's very possible my course would have been altered.

Many people have expressed being given a feeling of not being allowed to ask. I cannot speak to that because I did not experience it. No matter which yeshiva I was in, I was encouraged to ask questions and search for answers. For the vast majority of them I found the answers. this led me to feeling that if I do not have an answer to a specific question it is more likely due to my lack of understanding than anything else.

I can't speak to your experiences - I don't know what questions you asked, who you asked them to, or what answers were given - but BH it worked out well for you. I'm trying not to be presumptuous, but if your questions were asked from a purely academic perspective, without a background of discontent or challenges with the frum way of life, it's possible that the questions you asked were different, and/or that your bar for satisfaction in those answers may have been lower.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #112 on: June 17, 2021, 02:56:18 PM »
.....
Someone who wants to believe will acknowledge the limitations of the human mind and accept that he doesn’t and isn’t meant to have all the answers while someone looking for an out will use the same questions as justification for doing what he is gravitating towards in any case. This is why a timeline makes all the difference.

I'm not sure why the timeline matters. If we can't answer the questions, regardless of motivation, theology will be blamed. Are there other reasons? Almost always. But that doesn't change the fact that answering the theological questions can remove that as a reason. And I believe there are answers to every question. We may not like all of them, and they may require us to accept answers that aren't to our exacting specifications (i.e. I cannot prove that something does not exist), but the answers are there if you ask the right people and look in the right places.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #113 on: June 17, 2021, 03:03:29 PM »
He did lose his mother at age 6 and his older brother and father when he was young and then got into a court battle with his surviving sister so he definitely did not have a happy tranquil existence. In  addition to the fact that even the teachers in his Talmud Torah were largely educated in the Roman catholic schools and there is a doubt as to how much authentic chinuch he actually received. He also fell in with a bad crowd as a teenager when he went into business and was surrounded by friends from various religions who were doubters and Bible critics and had a huge influence on him.

In short, he didn't go OTD because he was in a coed dorm at Yale.

One thing that does stand out is he did not go OTD in order to enjoy a better life physically he was willing to suffer for what he thought was the truth. That’s certainly more compelling than an OTD individual who claims he is seeking only the truth but is casting aside a lifestyle that appears to restrictive for one that at least has the allure of freedom and pleasure.

More compelling to whom?

This judgement is unnecessary. As long as they are good people and shomer Torah u'mitzvos, we don't rank people's frumkeit by analyzing their personal thoughts or motivations for being frum. Why do we think it's ok to treat OTD people any differently?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 03:07:03 PM by Lurker »
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #114 on: June 17, 2021, 03:19:06 PM »
I'm not sure why the timeline matters. If we can't answer the questions, regardless of motivation, theology will be blamed. Are there other reasons? Almost always. But that doesn't change the fact that answering the theological questions can remove that as a reason. And I believe there are answers to every question. We may not like all of them, and they may require us to accept answers that aren't to our exacting specifications (i.e. I cannot prove that something does not exist), but the answers are there if you ask the right people and look in the right places.

In the end of the day a good many of the questions are still going to have to be answered by “we don’t know but we know there is a cheshbon”. Is that going to work for a potential OTD individual?

Or maybe you actually have a good answer that would satisfy an OTD individual  as to why my grandfathers family members were beaten bloody in one of the first Nazi extermination camps in Poland practically down the block from their neighborhood as they were forced to bury the still warm bodies of their wives and children who were murdered minutes before, while begging to be killed themselves, a luxury they only got when they were beaten too badly to exit the mass graves they were digging?

I have an OTD relative who went off for others reasons who can point to that as his proof. How would you address that to remove it as a rational?



« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 03:31:41 PM by cmey »

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #115 on: June 17, 2021, 04:27:51 PM »
In the end of the day a good many of the questions are still going to have to be answered by “we don’t know but we know there is a cheshbon”. Is that going to work for a potential OTD individual?

Or maybe you actually have a good answer that would satisfy an OTD individual  as to why my grandfathers family members were beaten bloody in one of the first Nazi extermination camps in Poland practically down the block from their neighborhood as they were forced to bury the still warm bodies of their wives and children who were murdered minutes before, while begging to be killed themselves, a luxury they only got when they were beaten too badly to exit the mass graves they were digging?

I have an OTD relative who went off for others reasons who can point to that as his proof. How would you address that to remove it as a rational?


That is an unbelievable amount of pain. I would not expect any normal person to stay sane or not to complain about it.
However, pain has no answer, all a person can do is express it to Hashem. It is in the expression of such pain itself where a person may find the “answer”.

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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2021, 04:31:35 PM »
In the end of the day a good many of the questions are still going to have to be answered by “we don’t know but we know there is a cheshbon”. Is that going to work for a potential OTD individual?

Or maybe you actually have a good answer that would satisfy an OTD individual  as to why my grandfathers family members were beaten bloody in one of the first Nazi extermination camps in Poland as they were forced to bury the still warm bodies of their wives and children while begging to be killed themselves, a luxury they only got when they were beaten too badly to exit the mass graves they were digging?

I have an OTD relative who went off for others reasons who can point to that as his proof. How would you address that to remove it as a rational?

I believe that you may be conflating theology with philosophy. IINM, theology is the study of religions and belief systems, with certain things within those systems accepted as facts, proven or not. To be able to answer every question with provable and irrefutable facts would effectively cancel theology in general, and Emunah in particular, which is a foundational tenet of Judaism. There would be no beliefs, only facts.

The question you're essentially asking is, "What are G-d's motivations?" You gave an example of an indescribable horrendous occurrence, but the same question can be asked of seemingly good occurrences, too. Jewish theology is predicated on the belief that G-d is beyond human understanding. G-d is limitless, and to assume humans can understand G-d would be limiting G-d's capabilities to the limits of human thought. While we can look to Torah to see if G-d has told us His motivation for some things, there is no way to know all of His thoughts and reasons.

Things may happen in life that challenge some of the things your theology gives as facts. It may cause you to choose not to accept some of those things as facts anymore. It's something I have personally struggled with, and I'm not a Holocaust survivor or the victim of tragic circumstances. My attempt at a possible answer to your question above won't cut it for many people. It's why I cannot judge people who choose not to believe the things I believe as the basis for my existence and the way I should live my life.

** I am not an academic and I'm most certainly not nearly as well versed on these topics (or any topic) as some other DDFers, let alone the great minds and scholars of the world. The opinions above are simply a poor attempt to express my limited thoughts and understandings. **
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2021, 04:38:42 PM »
I have an OTD relative who went off for others reasons who can point to that as his proof. How would you address that to remove it as a rational?

Not understanding something isn't proof of anything. You can choose not to believe in things you don't understand, but intellectual integrity would demand that you extend that to all facets of things you may not understand, like medicine, physics, electricity, or a myriad of other topics. Your relative's argument would then be, "If I see with my own eyes that it works, I rely on it, whether I understand it or not. Judaism doesn't work for me." To that, I don't have a good answer.
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #118 on: June 17, 2021, 04:42:54 PM »
who you asked them to,
In no specific order:
R' Avrohom Pessin
R Levi Dicker
R Avigdor Miller (he had times that he took calls during lunch until an exact second when it was time for him bentch and he would say "hatzlocha gedolah vchol tuv" and hang up)
YB"L R Meir Stern
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Re: Actual reasons people go OTD
« Reply #119 on: June 17, 2021, 04:50:03 PM »
In no specific order:
R' Avrohom Pessin
R Levi Dicker
R Avigdor Miller (he had times that he took calls during lunch until an exact second when it was time for him bentch and he would say "hatzlocha gedolah vchol tuv" and hang up)
YB"L R Meir Stern

I'm sorry if I came across as questioning where you got your answers from. It was not my intention. It was simply a long-winded way of saying
I can't speak to your experiences
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.