Building Collapses in Surfside, FL

[Lurker]

11th victim found.

[UKinNYS]

New details re. foundation
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html

[zale]

New details re. foundation
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html

Is this unusual? Is flooding not common in basements? I’m not an expert, just asking honestly.

None of the theories proposed by the “experts” seem to explain why the building came down like that. Lots of buildings deal with minor sinking, flooding in the basement, concrete issues etc and they don’t collapse. Not a single one of the engineers hired said “the building is at risk of collapse if we don’t fix the cracks immediately”.

Based on these “experts”, it would seem that if a car backed into one of the columns in the basement parking garage by mistake, the whole building would collapse because of a domino effect. Does that make any sense?

[Dan]

Is this unusual? Is flooding not common in basements? I’m not an expert, just asking honestly.

None of the theories proposed by the “experts” seem to explain why the building came down like that. Lots of buildings deal with minor sinking, flooding in the basement, concrete issues etc and they don’t collapse. Not a single one of the engineers hired said “the building is at risk of collapse if we don’t fix the cracks immediately”.

Based on these “experts”, it would seem that if a car backed into one of the columns in the basement parking garage by mistake, the whole building would collapse because of a domino effect. Does that make any sense?

The issue isn't just flooding. It's corroded rebar and severely cracked foundation, which is caused in part by pool and ocean water flooding.

One column in a basement isn't supporting the whole building, so taking it out may add stress to other columns, but it won't take the building down.

[AsherO]

The issue isn't just flooding. It's corroded rebar and severely cracked foundation, which is caused in part by pool and ocean water flooding.

One column in a basement isn't supporting the whole building, so taking it out may add stress to other columns, but it won't take the building down.

The engineering forum I linked to upthread, posters (most with more subject matter expertise than your average DDFer) keep saying how x cause or y factor wouldn’t explain the magnitude of this collapse.

[Dan]

The engineering forum I linked to upthread, posters (most with more subject matter expertise than your average DDFer) keep saying how x cause or y factor wouldn’t explain the magnitude of this collapse.

As with all catastrophic failures, it's a confluence of circumstances. There's never one fail-safe.

A flawed design and 40 years of subpar maintenance, and an added penthouse level, and a heavy load on the roof for repairs, and an asymmetrical design, and a leaking pool, and corroded rebar, and a cracked foundation, and damaging construction next door...

[AsherO]

As with all catastrophic failures, it's a confluence of circumstances. There's never one fail-safe.

Indeed. Hopefully they can learn something from this tragedy to prevent it from happening elsewhere.

[Dan]

Indeed. Hopefully they can learn something from this tragedy to prevent it from happening elsewhere.

See ETA.
I'm sure there will be a federal investigation and updated guidance, just like after every airplane accident. Live and learn, just very sad so many had to perish

[AsherO]

A flawed design and 40 years of subpar maintenance, and an added penthouse level, and a heavy load on the roof for repairs, and an asymmetrical design, and a leaking pool, and corroded rebar, and a cracked foundation, and damaging construction next door...

Those are just of few of many other potential/theoretical factors being suggested.

[Dan]

Those are just of few of many other potential/theoretical factors being suggested.

Yup. What else have you seen?
It wouldn't be a surprise if it took a dozen or more compounding factors to bring down the building. But that being said, I also wouldn't be surprised if other buildings in the area are facing many of those factors as well and are going to have to do some expensive remedies ASAP.

[AsherO]

See ETA.
I'm sure there will be a federal investigation and updated guidance, just like after every airplane accident.

With aviation they don’t just do this for accidents, they do it for incidents as well.

Its crazy how dangerous aviation was for the first 30-50 years of its history, and how (relatively) safe its been for the past 30-50 years.

[AsherO]

Yup. What else have you seen?

Some notable ones are sinkholes, the limestone below the building, lack of proper subterranean drainage, and the US Navy’s shock test off the coast of FL less than a week before the collapse.

[Dan]

Some notable ones are sinkholes, the limestone below the building, lack of proper subterranean drainage, and the US Navy’s shock test off the coast of FL less than a week before the collapse.

Sinkhole is probably a big one.
Porous limestone affects the entire state. Lack of subterranean drainage/flat waterproofing of the pool is the initial design flaw I mentioned that caused many issues.
Seems hard to see how a shock test would be a factor when it's not uncommon and didn't affect anywhere else, but who knows. Anything could have been the final nail I suppose.

[AsherO]

Sinkhole is probably a big one.
Porous limestone affects the entire state. Lack of subterranean drainage/flat waterproofing of the pool is the initial design flaw I mentioned that caused many issues.
Seems hard to see how a shock test would be a factor when it's not uncommon and didn't affect anywhere else, but who knows. Anything could have been the final nail I suppose.

The pool issues could have caused the concrete between the pool and the building to collapse and (since it was all connected) strain the bottom of the building on that side.

The top floors of the building were apparently also spec’d to bear less weight than the lower floors, which might be normal but would come more of an issue with the added penthouse and equipment on the roof.

[biobook]

The engineering forum I linked to upthread, posters (most with more subject matter expertise than your average DDFer) keep saying how x cause or y factor wouldn’t explain the magnitude of this collapse.

Thanks for posting that link.  It's been fascinating to eavesdrop on their discussion, even if I don't understand most of the terminology.

[meme]

“The mayor of Surfside, Florida, described a chance meeting with a 12-year-old girl at the Champlain Towers South collapse site Sunday night that “hit me the hardest.”

“Last night, when I did my late night pass at the building there was little girl. She’s about 12 years old and she was sitting by herself,” Surfside Mayor Charles Burkett told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer Monday.

Burkett said he knew the little girl from a previous encounter and understood that either her mother or father was a victim of the Surfside collapse. Burkett said he found her sitting near the rubble pile scrolling through prayers on her cell phone “all by herself.”

"She was reading a Jewish prayer to herself, sitting at the site, by where one of her parents presumably is," the mayor said.

“And that broke my heart. And I’m going to find that girl today and I’m going to tell her that she just needs to come to me for anything she needs because that’s the face of this problem, of this disaster right here – that little girl,” Burkett said. “By herself, completely lost, sitting there, on the deck, looking at the pile of rubble imaging one of her parents is in there. That should never happen.”

Heartbreaking.

[Yehudaa]

Heartbreaking.

+1000. Just horrible. I can't even imagine what a 12 yr old in that situation is going through. If anyone's tefillos are going straight up to Hashem it's this kid's.

[UKinNYS]

https://twitter.com/DeFede/status/1409651517942951936

[yzj]

As with all catastrophic failures, it's a confluence of circumstances. There's never one fail-safe.

A flawed design and 40 years of subpar maintenance, and an added penthouse level, and a heavy load on the roof for repairs, and an asymmetrical design, and a leaking pool, and corroded rebar, and a cracked foundation, and damaging construction next door...

Yet millions of multistory structures have been built in the US over the last century, likely many of them cut more corners and had poorer designs than Champlain especially in the early 20th century yet practically none of them have had catastrophic failures of this magnitude. As many issues as one can point to this is simply not derech hatevah.

At the end of the day

It's crazy that of the many millions of buildings in the country, the one building that collapsed was one that had a very significant jewish (and frum) population.

I have no idea what the message is, but I think it's glaringly obvious that Hashem is telling us something here.

[TimT]

https://twitter.com/DeFede/status/1409651517942951936

A bunch of campaign speeches. Free camera time.