POSTS ON SHABBOS!!!

[AsherO]

He wasn't talking about the people, but about the action. People have no right to decide not to be observant, & while they are usually tinok sheneshba, the actions are not worth of respect.

It's called free choice for a reason. People have every right to choose, and while there are consequences, this case (Shabbos) is a bein-adam-lamakom, in which case they aren't accountable to you.

[PlatinumGuy]

It's called free choice for a reason. People have every right to choose, and while there are consequences, this case (Shabbos) is a bein-adam-lamakom, in which case they aren't accountable to you.

In our religion there is no free choice. Certain things you have to do. They aren't accountable to me, but how does that mean I should 'respect' them?

[PlatinumGuy]

  That's awesome!

Here it is http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=10605.msg153275#msg153275

[AsherO]

In our religion there is no free choice. Certain things you have to do.

Really now, what about רמב"ם הל' תשובה פ"ה ה"ה?

אבל נדע בלא ספק שמעשה האדם ביד האדם ואין הקב"ה מושכו ולא גוזר עליו לעשות כך

[sky121]

is anybody else bothered by the fact, that posts are being made on this blog on Shabbos!


I would call myself a liberal, but I think its a bit much when in its your face.

unless i am doing something wrong, i clicked on "Show unread posts since last visit" , and quite a few posts came up under "today". with many having Yiddishe sounding pen names.

maybe they are in Israel or another time zone, I hope so.

-Jolly

I posted today. I'm in Israel.  I'm going to assume that MOST of the other religious people posting today are also in Israel  or other time zones and that the rest aren't religious/Jewish.  Simple as that.

[PlatinumGuy]

Really now, what about רמב"ם הל' תשובה פ"ה ה"ה?

What are you trying to say? The Rambam is saying you're allowed to be mechallel shabbos?
He's saying ones decision are his own & dictated by G-D, that he could decide to be mechallel Shabbos, C"V not implying its legit & he has a 'right' to decide so!

[AsherO]

He's saying ones decision are his own & dictated by G-D, that he could decide to be mechallel Shabbos, C"V not implying its legit & he has a 'right' to decide so!

Right, and since you're not g-d then unless you can stop him it isn't your business, and you need to respect him as a human being regardless, especially if he's a tinok shenishba.

[PlatinumGuy]

and you need to respect him as a human being regardless

see here

He wasn't talking about the people, but about the action. People have no right to decide not to be observant, & while they are usually tinok sheneshba, the actions are not worthy of respect .

Right, and since you're not g-d then unless you can stop him it isn't your business,

Let's just remember the reason its not for 'me' to judge him is because we are in golus without a Beis Din. Just like it we are supposed to have korbons & don't have. (Not that I'm BD, but mankind)
Also even bzman haze there are dinim like Moridim Veloo Mallim

[AsherO]

see hereLet's just remember the reason its not for 'me' to judge him is because we are in golus without a Beis Din. Just like it we are supposed to have korbons & don't have. (Not that I'm BD, but mankind)

Even if there was a sanhedrin, they would have to judge him. So unless you were a member...

Also even bzman haze there are dinim like Moridim Veloo Mallim

I'm sure that's totally referring to a case where you suspect someone is posting to a forum on Shabbos, as in the OP

[PlatinumGuy]

I'm pretty sure anybody who is Mechalel Shabbos is Lo Maalim Velo Mordiimn, I can check for you later.
Its only a suspicion, but we're discussing what would be the implications if its true.

[AsherO]

I'm pretty sure anybody who is Mechalel Shabbos is Lo Maalim Velo Mordiimn, I can check for you later.
Its only a suspicion, but we're discussing what would be the implications if its true.

Perhaps ones energy would be better focused on educating people about Shabbos observance and helping them observe it instead of suspecting (possibly nonexistent) culprits and vilifying them and figuring out whether they qualify for ' Moridim Veloo Mallim'.

[PlatinumGuy]

Perhaps your energy would be better focused on educating people about Shabbos observance and helping them observe it instead of vilifying them and figuring out whether they qualify for ' Moridim Veloo Mallim'.

100% correct. But that's still better than trying to prove its OK.
This conversation starterd as a reply to someone who wanted us to 'respect' chillul shabbos on the forums.

[AsherO]

100% correct. But that's still better than trying to prove its OK.

I never said it's ok, I countered your statements (that people have no right) with other statements proving otherwise, which you failed to refute. My point wasn't to justify other people's behavior, it was to frame the discussion with some perspective.

[PlatinumGuy]

I never said it's ok, I countered your statements (that people have no right) with other statements proving otherwise, which you failed to refute.

Which would that be?

My point wasn't to justify other people's behavior, it was to frame the discussion with some perspective.

I wasn't judging, nor did I did initiate this pointless thread. Simply pointing out there is no 'respect' due.

[AsherO]

Which would that be?

You said people have no free choice, the Rambam says they do. So what if there's context, it's still free choice.

Which would that be? I wasn't judging, nor did I did initiate this pointless thread. Simply pointing out there is no 'respect' due.

No respect due sounds like a judgement to me. Let's see you introduce a tinok shenishba to Shabbos observance without respecting them, good luck getting anywhere with that attitude.

That's my point, feel free to disagree/think I'm wrong.

[PlatinumGuy]

You said people have no free choice, the Rambam says they do. So what if there's context, it's still free choice.

What we are discussing is not the capability to make a decision, but the legitimacy to do so. By no 'free' choice I meant a Jew has no 'right' to be michallel Shabbos. Countering this

It's called free choice for a reason. People have every right to choose

I'm in not in kiruv, nor was my intention to be mekarev someone. Obviously it is my responsibility (within reason) to make Judasim attractive, but I don't see this forum as a place to do that.

[SuperFlyer]

@ plat: your last message is a little hard to swallow.

-----------

Omn another note: I've had 2 guys that I bbm'ed, knowing that its shabbes by them, hoping they would reply motse, but got a reply in shabbes.

Wasn't sure what to do, but immediately replied: sorry its shabbes by, we shall continue this after.

Both guys (that are officially frum) b"H didn't reply.

I have no experience in this field, so if anyone knows what my reaction should be, if it c"v happens again...?

[SuperFlyer]

PS: I'm in the USA, posting from a european sim/BB, so it would be interesting to see what country showed up ppsting this particular message.

(Previous message, was BB via wifi)

[PlatinumGuy]

@SF I have a similar story. Although the 'officially' frum part with my friend is much more complex. Is this a widespread phenomenon?
AFAIK Dan is locating the posts according to IP addresses so it doesn't make a difference what kind of device you're using

[Ergel]

Unfortunately, this is a very common phenomenon-it's called half shabbos and it means you are "shomer shabbos" but you text on shabbos (I wasn't sure if it included bbm-does it have a din of text or email/google chat. Maybe it's a machlokes haposkim). It's very sad.