POSTS ON SHABBOS!!!

[Dan]

are you insane? if you see a non-frum do something that it 100% wrong, and it doesnt irk you in the slightest.....(im not saying to judge him or rebuke him, im saying what you feel inside)...then your practicing the wrong judiasm.

Irk me?  Of course.
Does that mean I should start screaming at him or spew hate?  That will hardly accomplish anything.

[JOLLYJ]

You do realize that now you've contributed posts to a website where there is the possibility of jews reading what you wrote on shabbos.

I suggest you ask your LOR immediately to see if you need to delete all of your posts, lest you contribute online reading material to said theoretical person.  I would be happy to help delete your posts and account should the need arise.

here we go again. immature statement.

[Dan]

my mobile doesn't support hebrew, but maybe someone can pst the last Halocha in the Rambam Hilchos Rotzeach.
The Rambam and other Rishonim hold there is a Mitzvas Esse to hate someone who is oiver even one avirah. (Other rishonim hold it is allowed but not required) Excluding tinok shneshba
Obviously this is different that displaying hate - necessity might require one to hide it.

Our entire generation has the status of Tinok Shenishbah and our job is to bring them back through ahavas yisroel and not the opposite.
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/ahavas-yisroel/10.htm

[JOLLYJ]

Irk me?  Of course.
Does that mean I should start screaming at him or spew hate?  That will hardly accomplish anything.

so tell me, where in any of my recent posts, did i say to spew hate? (you seem to be very good at finding my posts)

[Dan]

here we go again. immature statement.

Why is that immature, I asked you a serious question, now go ask the shayla!  I know you will!

[JOLLYJ]

Our entire generation has the status of Tinok Shenishbah and our job is to bring them back through ahavas yisroel and not the opposite.
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/ahavas-yisroel/10.htm

again, where did i say anything that disagrees with that?

[Dan]

again, where did i say anything that disagrees with that?

You agreed with Platinumguy's statement about people not being allowed to choose not to be frum and not being worthy of respect IIRC.

[JOLLYJ]

Why is that immature, I asked you a serious question, now go ask the shayla!  I know you will!

no i actually wont "because it s none of my business" as YOU say, so i think you should be the one to ask the shayla, since you disagree, and its your site.

[Dan]

no i actually wont "because it s none of my business" as YOU say, so i think you should be the one to ask the shayla, since you disagree, and its your site.

Heh, so now you're not part of the co-op because the tables turned?

[JOLLYJ]

You agreed with Platinumguy's statement about people not being allowed to choose not to be frum and not being worthy of respect IIRC.

please repost, i dont recall. i would never agree to that. it was probably haphazardly.

[JOLLYJ]

Heh, so now you're not part of the co-op because the tables turned?

i brought it to the boards attention, its up to the board (you) to decide how to move forward. you set that up perfectly for me,

[Dan]

You can find it yourself, I'm done here.

[JOLLYJ]

You can find it yourself, I'm done here.

figures.

[JEWDA]

i brought it to the boards attention, its up to the board (you) to decide how to move forward. you set that up perfectly for me,

Get a life.

[AsherO]

my mobile doesn't support hebrew, but maybe someone can pst the last Halocha in the Rambam Hilchos Rotzeach.
The Rambam and other Rishonim hold there is a Mitzvas Esse to hate someone who is oiver even one avirah. (Other rishonim hold it is allowed but not required) Excluding tinok shneshba
Obviously this is different that displaying hate - necessity might require one to hide it.

Here you go:

Hebrew:

יד. השונא שנאמר בתורה לא מאומות העולם הוא אלא מישראל והיאך יהיה לישראל שונא מישראל והכתוב אומר לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך. אמרו חכמים כגון שראהו לבדו שעבר עבירה והתרה בו ולא חזר הרי זה מצוה לשונאו עד שיעשה תשובה וישוב מרשעו. ואע"פ שעדיין לא עשה תשובה אם מצאו נבהל במשאו מצוה לטעון ולפרוק עמו ולא יניחנו נוטה למות שמא ישהה בשביל ממונו ויבא לידי סכנה. והתורה הקפידה על נפשות ישראל. בין רשעים בין צדיקים מאחר שהם נלוים אל ה' ומאמינים בעיקר הדת. שנאמר אמור אליהם חי אני נאם ה' אלהים אם אחפוץ במות הרשע כי אם בשוב רשע מדרכו וחיה:

English:

The enemy mentioned in the Torah is not a gentile, but rather a Jew.

One might ask: How is it possible for one Jew to hate another? Is it not written Leviticus 19:17: "Do not hate your brother in your heart"?

Our Sages explained that this is referring to a person who while alone sees a colleague violate a transgression and rebukes him, but the colleague did not cease transgressing. In such an instance, it is a mitzvah to hate the person until he repents and abandons his wickedness.

Even if he did not repent yet, if one sees him in panic because of his cargo, it is a mitzvah to unload and reload with him, instead of leaving him inclined toward death, lest he tarry because of his money and be brought to danger. For the Torah showed concern for the lives of the Jewish people, both the wicked and the righteous, for they are attached to God and believe in the fundamentals of our faith. And Ezekiel 33:11 states: "Say to them, 'As I live,' says God, the Lord, 'Do I desire the death of a wicked man? I desire that the wicked return from his path and live.'

Did you notice the qualifications?

1. It has to be his colleague (someone on his level, The rambam doesn't say this, but the gemara does, see Shvuos 30a)
2. They have to be alone.
3. He has to have warned the guy.
4. The guy continued to do the aveira (didn't cease).
5. Even while 'hating' him you still need to help him unload packages, and save his life etc. meaning the other Torah obligations apply, including the obligation to love him as a fellow Jew.

[Chaikel]

figures.

here we go again. immature statement.

[ReadsTheT&C]

she'lo asani misnaged

[bubbles]

there are many sites that shut down over shabbos, for this problem. im sure you know of a very big electronics website that shuts down over shabbos.

this is a great question for R'Benders, round table discussion.

I'm a little late to the party but just curious which sites close over shabbos? (And btw b&h is open just doesn't take orders and they have a psak that even that is mutter if they would want to remain open)

[sguitarist18]

I honestly feel like there isn't much argument here - everyone is just talking AT each other, and trying to make sure that their point is heard.

Does anyone argue with the following points?

1) We should love all jews, or certainly display love for all jews, in the hope that they will come to appreciate hashem and judaism.

2) When any aveirah occurs, especially chillul shabbos, we should be truly horrified, as (if we would understand) we are seeing the destruction caused by those actions (tinuk shenishba or not). Nonetheless, since screaming and insulting will generally accomplish nothing, it is generally not the most productive response.

3) Helping other jews do an aveirah should be avoided whenever possible. In situations where a question arises, a shaila should be asked. However, being dan l'kaf zchus should be made very clear - for example, "xyz is probably what's going on here, but just in case, I wonder if this has ever been discussed on the forum, or a shaila asked?" At that point, as Dan indicated, the answer would seem to be, "yes, a shaila was asked."

Does everyone pretty much agree to all that?

[AsherO]

I honestly feel like there isn't much argument here - everyone is just talking AT each other, and trying to make sure that their point is heard.

Does anyone argue with the following points?

1) We should love all jews, or certainly display love for all jews, in the hope that they will come to appreciate hashem and judaism.

2) When any aveirah occurs, especially chillul shabbos, we should be truly horrified, as (if we would understand) we are seeing the destruction caused by those actions (tinuk shenishba or not). Nonetheless, since screaming and insulting will generally accomplish nothing, it is generally not the most productive response.

3) Helping other jews do an aveirah should be avoided whenever possible. In situations where a question arises, a shaila should be asked. However, being dan l'kaf zchus should be made very clear - for example, "xyz is probably what's going on here, but just in case, I wonder if this has ever been discussed on the forum, or a shaila asked?" At that point, as Dan indicated, the answer would seem to be, "yes, a shaila was asked."

Does everyone pretty much agree to all that?

1) Loving every Jew ins't so they should appreciate anything. I know that's probably not what you're saying, but that's what it sounds like.
2) Destructive? Horrified? Personally I'd choose other words.
3) "helping" is an ambiguous word, and probably one of the contentious points in this thread, so even if we all agree it isn't ok to help, we don't necessarily define "help" the same.