BDE Jackie Mason

[zh cohen]

There is no way he was a musmach of Reb Moshe either.

Why?

[CountValentine]

Discussion should be in other threads.

[YitzyS]

The intention of the post was not to degrade him or what he accomplished. It was for us to take a lesson, which I strongly believe is a correct message, and can even be a zechus for him if we improve based on it.

Although I don't want to do any mudslinging, comparing him to the badchan of the gemara is absurd. A non-religious person who made people happy is a tragedy compered to a rov and posek who strives to do the ratzon Hashem their whole life. And while I 100 percent agree that it is far above our job to be a judge, the tragedy is still there, and we must not be that liberal and say that he served Hashem equally in his role just as had he reached his religious potential.

Again, I did not say this when any other Jewish born celebrity died. Even though they could've been Torah giants, their potential never rose to the surface. I only said it on him, as the trajectory of his life seemed to be taking him to great heights, and he lived a vastly different life. Did he have nisyonos? I'm sure he did. Can I judge him? Absolutely not. But can I look at him and say, 'I don't want to make the same mistakes'? It would be awful if I didn't.

[chevron]

Some doctor once told me that rav Moshe said, regarding Dr Fred Epstein who took 3 tumors from my spine, that had Dr Epstein been frum, he'd have been a gadol hador.

I never verified this story, it's possible... Dr Epstein was confused the greatest neurosurgeon ever.

On the other hand, if not for him as a surgeon, thousands may not have lived.

Everyone can be a Monday morning quarterback, That and a ticket will get you into the game

[ExGingi]

The intention of the post was not to degrade him or what he accomplished. It was for us to take a lesson, which I strongly believe is a correct message, and can even be a zechus for him if we improve based on it.

Although I don't want to do any mudslinging, comparing him to the badchan of the gemara is absurd. A non-religious person who made people happy is a tragedy compered to a rov and posek who strives to do the ratzon Hashem their whole life. And while I 100 percent agree that it is far above our job to be a judge, the tragedy is still there, and we must not be that liberal and say that he served Hashem equally in his role just as had he reached his religious potential.

Again, I did not say this when any other Jewish born celebrity died. Even though they could've been Torah giants, their potential never rose to the surface. I only said it on him, as the trajectory of his life seemed to be taking him to great heights, and he lived a vastly different life. Did he have nisyonos? I'm sure he did. Can I judge him? Absolutely not. But can I look at him and say, 'I don't want to make the same mistakes'? It would be awful if I didn't.

תענית כב.

אדהכי והכי אתו הנך תרי אתי א"ל הנך נמי בני עלמא דאתי נינהו אזל לגבייהו אמר להו מאי עובדייכו אמרו ליה אינשי בדוחי אנן מבדחינן עציבי אי נמי כי חזינן בי תרי דאית להו תיגרא בהדייהו טרחינן ועבדינן להו שלמא:

Notice that it only says מבדחינן עציבי doesn't say anything else about Torah learning or adherence to mitzvos.

[YitzyS]

תענית כב.

Beautiful Pinky Weber song about that story, sung by Yisroel Adler (Track 2, Olam Habah)

[YitzyS]

Notice that it only says מבדחינן עציבי doesn't say anything else about Torah learning or adherence to mitzvos.

Some things don't have to be said.

I don't think you can make that assumption without it saying so in a sefer. A non-frum comedian who rejected Torah to make people happy is not comparable to a the people mentioned in the gemara. To say that such a person goes straight to Gan Eden is a huge chidush.

[AsherO]

Some things don't have to be said.

I don't think you can make that assumption without it saying so in a sefer. A non-frum comedian who rejected Torah to make people happy is not comparable to a the people mentioned in the gemara. To say that such a person goes straight to Gan Eden is a huge chidush.

So he isn't going straight to Gan Eden, and maybe most of us aren't, but is that really our business to discuss, likely before he's even buried?

[yungermanchik]

So he isn't going straight to Gan Eden, and maybe most of us aren't, but is that really our business to discuss, likely before he's even buried?

I think you missed this:

The intention of the post was not to degrade him or what he accomplished. It was for us to take a lesson, which I strongly believe is a correct message, and can even be a zechus for him if we improve based on it.

[AsherO]

I think you missed this:

I didn't, I feel like Yitzy could make the point about JM's potential without talking about his yom hadin.

[YitzyS]

I didn't, I feel like Yitzy could make the point about JM's potential without talking about his yom hadin.

I can’t stop thinking about Jackie Mason. There is one thing that keeps replaying in my head, and it’s really frightening.

I may be wrong for thinking like this, but it was a very real emotion that I had, and it was his din, as it made me envision mine. You can tell me to mind my own business, or to keep my personal thoughts off a public forum, and you may be right.

I thought that others can channel the feelings I had, even though they are not the most flattering for JM, but they can still be a zechus for him.

[Jellybelly]

So he isn't going straight to Gan Eden, and maybe most of us aren't, but is that really our business to discuss, likely before he's even buried?

It is definitely our business to discuss so we can Learn from it,
But a public forum might not be the right place.

[ExGingi]

Some things don't have to be said.

I don't think you can make that assumption without it saying so in a sefer. A non-frum comedian who rejected Torah to make people happy is not comparable to a the people mentioned in the gemara. To say that such a person goes straight to Gan Eden is a huge chidush.

Exactly. It is a chidush and that's why it's brought in the gemoro.

[gozalim]

תענית כב.

Notice that it only says מבדחינן עציבי doesn't say anything else about Torah learning or adherence to mitzvos.

...and I'm sure פב"פ mentioned on shabbos the time that this gemoro was עולה על שולחן מלכים

[yungermanchik]

I didn't, I feel like Yitzy could make the point about JM's potential without talking about his yom hadin.

I understand what you're saying but IMHO the visualization make the message more powerful, that's why magidus often works better than stam mussar.

[YitzyS]

Exactly. It is a chidush and that's why it's brought in the gemoro.

-1. The gemara is not talking about people who rejected Torah.

[lcm]

https://books.google.com/books?id=z8MNBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA387&lpg=PA387&dq=jackie+mason+lubavitcher+rebbe+dollars

[Lurker]

https://books.google.com/books?id=z8MNBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA387&lpg=PA387&dq=jackie+mason+lubavitcher+rebbe+dollars

If this is how the Rebbe treated him in life, when he could still choose to make changes in his life, how much more so should we be careful about how we talk about his choices when he can no longer make any changes.

[Jellybelly]

If this is how the Rebbe treated him in life, when he could still choose to make changes in his life, how much more so should we be careful about how we talk about his choices when he can no longer make any changes.

You can also say the opposite.
That’s how to treat someone that still has a chance, but now it’s too late

[Lurker]

You can also say the opposite.
That’s how to treat someone that still has a chance, but now it’s too late

So when someone still has the ability to make changes, we keep quiet about his choices, but when he's no longer in a position to make changes and is facing Beis Din Shel Ma'alah, we point out what he could have done differently? The Soton needs assistant lawyers? Can't handle the case on his own? Al tiftach peh...