NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities

[Yehuda57]

1) I don’t recall hospitals overflowing from the seasonal flu &
2) I still don’t personally know anyone who’s died from the flu.

Your point is well taken, but as recently as 2017/2018 flu season hospitals in NJ ran out of beds from flu.

We all know people who died WITH the flu

(Remember this argument?)

This argument is real. In the CDC's recent report, they count the deaths in <12 year olds as dying WITH covid, but from causes unattributable to covid at 30% (if memory serves). They are still counted as covid deaths. I don't recall the number for adults, but it is significantly lower. But, covid was also under-counted in the beginning when people were dropping like flies in NY and there was no testing. The excess deaths prove this.

My point is, when you dismiss the argument altogether when it is real, you lose trust.

[Euclid]

This argument is real. In the CDC's recent report, they count the deaths in <12 year olds as dying WITH covid, but from causes unattributable to covid at 30% (if memory serves). They are still counted as covid deaths. I don't recall the number for adults, but it is significantly lower. But, covid was also under-counted in the beginning when people were dropping like flies in NY and there was no testing. The excess deaths prove this.

My point is, when you dismiss the argument altogether when it is real, you lose trust.

This is true for public guidance.

I just want to be snarky on DDF - I'm not arguing in good faith (in this debate); in my mind 99.99999% of DDFers have already made up their minds wrt to the vaccine - so I'm just having fun

[CountValentine]

...in my mind 99.99999% of DDFers have already made up their minds wrt to the vaccine - so I'm just having fun

Each day more and more people are getting the vaccine. You don't think DDFers are doing the same?

[Yehuda57]

in my mind 99.99999% of DDFers have already made up their minds wrt to the vaccine

I doubt this very much. The vocal ones, sure, but not the readers. I suspect the readers represent the same numbers as the general community, of which many are in doubt.

[Lurker]

I doubt this very much. The vocal ones, sure, but not the readers. I suspect the readers represent the same numbers as the general community, of which many are in doubt.

I don't think the frum community is split along the same lines as the general public.

[Yehuda57]

I don't think the frum community is split along the same lines as the general public.

I'm talking about the frum community

[Lurker]

I'm talking about the frum community

As things stand now, I think @Euclid is right. Minds have been made up. DDF commentary isn't convincing anyone to get the shot right now. If things change (new data/studies, mass infections, etc.), then people may change their minds.

[TimT]

mass infections

Isn't this already happening ?

[CountValentine]

Isn't this already happening ?

Isn't @Lurker from FL? 

[TimT]

Isn't @Lurker from FL? 

Numbers are shooting up everywhere. NY State’s COVID hospitalizations surged by 227% in the last month.

[Euclid]

Isn't this already happening ?

@yesitsme reported that chemed is now packed (for vaccinations), so I guess it's having an effect

[Yehuda57]

As things stand now, I think @Euclid is right. Minds have been made up. DDF commentary isn't convincing anyone to get the shot right now. If things change (new data/studies, mass infections, etc.), then people may change their minds.

With due respect, you are simply wrong.

I know of people who got vaccinated last week. Someone they knew tested positive, so they got the shot. I had a discussion with people mad at a 70 year old anti vaxxer for not taking the shot, but they themselves haven't gotten vaccinated. Plenty of people have questions and are unsure, but not staunchly anti vax. The biggest concern, IMHO is fertility. There are very convincing campaigns on social media that Israel is hiding an epidemic of vaccine-induced infertility. Even people who have gotten the shot believe in the cover up.
And for men, I think the main hesitancy is natural immunity rendering it moot (even if they aren't sure if they had covid! Go figure)

Overall, the issue is people just don't trust public health officials, and believe doctors might be shills, naive, or afraid to speak up. So they aren't sure whether to believe the conspiracy theories or not.

[Euclid]

With due respect, you are simply wrong.

I know of people who got vaccinated last week. Someone they knew tested positive, so they got the shot. I had a discussion with people mad at a 70 year old anti vaxxer for not taking the shot, but they themselves haven't gotten vaccinated. Plenty of people have questions and are unsure, but not staunchly anti vax. The biggest concern, IMHO is fertility. There are very convincing campaigns on social media that Israel is hiding an epidemic of vaccine-induced infertility. Even people who have gotten the shot believe in the cover up.
And for men, I think the main hesitancy is natural immunity rendering it moot (even if they aren't sure if they had covid! Go figure)

Overall, the issue is people just don't trust public health officials, and believe doctors might be shills, naive, or afraid to speak up. So they aren't sure whether to believe the conspiracy theories or not.

Just (like 10 min minutes ago) witnessed this happen in a different (frum) forum I'm part of. Fascinating to me - I was sure the sides were staked out already. Though now it seems like (to me) that most people just procrastinated into making a decision because there wasn't a pressing need.

[biobook]

I doubt this very much. The vocal ones, sure, but not the readers. I suspect the readers represent the same numbers as the general community, of which many are in doubt.

Readers may not want to be vocal here, but they can post anonymously on the main site.  Maybe @Dan can post a survey to see whether the responses of mostly-frum readers resemble the general community, using the question which I slightly revised from here
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-july-2021/

Have you personally received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, or not?

Yes, got at least one dose
No, but plan to get it as soon as I can
No, still have questions and waiting to decide
No, but will get it if required for certain activities like work or school
No, I will definitely not get the vaccine

[Dan]

Readers may not want to be vocal here, but they can post anonymously on the main site.  Maybe @Dan can post a survey to see whether the responses of mostly-frum readers resemble the general community, using the question which I slightly revised from here
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-july-2021/

Have you personally received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, or not?

Yes, got at least one dose
No, but plan to get it as soon as I can
No, still have questions and waiting to decide
No, but will get it if required for certain activities like work or school
No, I will definitely not get the vaccine

Unless (or even if?) the poll asks if the person was infected, such a poll won't make frum Jews look very good.

[biobook]

Well, it's at least a start.  You could ask about prior infections in a different poll, but I think your polling program doesn't allow for simple combination of the questions.  And then there's the issue of "I'm vaccinated but not my spouse", etc.  The question I posted at least allows comparison with the rest of the country.

[biobook]

Unless (or even if?) the poll asks if the person was infected, such a poll won't make frum Jews look very good.

And one of my posts from yesterday showed (in Kentucky) close to half of those who had recovered from covid in 2020 had already been vaccinated by May 2021

[TimT]

Will definitely make for some popcorn worthy reading material.

[Yehuda57]

There are plenty of free polling tools which easily allow for conditional questions. I think these are vital:

I was previously infected with Covid
If yes:
With a positive PCR or antibodies test
Based on symptoms without a confirming test.

[Euclid]

There are plenty of free polling tools which easily allow for conditional questions. I think these are vital:

I was previously infected with Covid
If yes:
With a positive PCR or antibodies test
Based on symptoms without a confirming test.

Also need to ask about "exposure". Saw someone mention that today.