Author Topic: Ron DeSantis Master Thread  (Read 68460 times)

Offline biobook

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #140 on: August 12, 2021, 02:46:14 PM »
Mexican
Thanks for circling back
The border between Florida and Mexico is called the Gulf of Mexico.  Not a lot of Mexicans entering Florida that way.

If the virus was brought from Mexico to Florida, it was more likely carried by an American who visited the Texas-Mexico border, and brought it back.  Someone like this fellow, who was there around the time the current wave started.
https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/politics/state/2021/07/16/desantis-florida-republican-gop-leaders-visit-texas-mexico-border/7995049002/

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #141 on: August 12, 2021, 02:51:01 PM »
The case for immigrants spreading covid is not that they came over the border to Florida, but many immigrants have been sent to other places in the US, and have then travelled on their own to places like FL.

I think all sane people can agree that while the border covid theory might have a drop of truth to it, it is political rhetoric and not what is driving the surge in FL or anywhere.

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #142 on: August 12, 2021, 02:53:25 PM »
The case for immigrants spreading covid is not that they came over the border to Florida, but many immigrants have been sent to other places in the US, and have then travelled on their own to places like FL.

I think all sane people can agree that while the border covid theory might have a drop of truth to it, it is political rhetoric and not what is driving the surge in FL or anywhere.
What are the numbers of illegal immigration from Mexico vs Americans returning from vacation in CUN?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #143 on: August 12, 2021, 02:55:03 PM »
What are the numbers of illegal immigration from Mexico vs Americans returning from vacation in CUN?

and immigrants are quarantined

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #144 on: August 12, 2021, 03:23:48 PM »
and immigrants are quarantined
*if they're detained.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #145 on: August 12, 2021, 03:28:06 PM »
*if they're detained.

In the clips I've seen, this is exactly what DeSantis been speaking about

Offline CountValentine

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #146 on: August 12, 2021, 04:28:56 PM »
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline biobook

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #147 on: August 12, 2021, 04:29:46 PM »

I think all sane people can agree that while the border covid theory might have a nanodrop of truth to it, it is political rhetoric and not what is driving the surge in FL or anywhere.

FTFY

Sane people might realize it's political rhetoric, but unfortunately that's virtually all he contributes to tackling the pandemic.

When the hospitalizations here are mentioned, he "doesn't want to hear a blip about covid."
When public health experts provide advice, he brushes it off with "Don't Fauci my Florida"
When cruise ships see a way out of the shutdown by offering all-vaxed cruises that attract their major demographic (over 50), he bans that as unfair to any unvaxed customers who might want to travel.
He prioritizes the "freedom" of the few parents who don't want their children to wear masks over the freedom of the large majority of parents to send their children to a school that is as safe as possible.

He prioritizes economic development over maintaining the lives and health of Floridians.  Sane people might realize he's got that backwards, but sanity is not a prerequisite for government.  Or for electing the next one.

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #148 on: August 12, 2021, 04:33:47 PM »
What are the numbers of illegal immigration from Mexico vs Americans returning from vacation in CUN?

Who is more likely to have covid, migrants who have been packed like sardines into trucks to be snuggled across central America, or people flying on vacation to CAN?

Who is more likely to be vaccinated?

Who is more likely to have the ability to isolate if they have covid when they get here?

Offline biobook

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #149 on: August 12, 2021, 04:42:59 PM »
We are for personal choice as long as we agree with it.  :)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/editorial-the-hypocrisy-and-danger-of-desantis-personal-choice-talk/ar-AAMSK7x?ocid=msedgntp
This mentions the paper by Emily Oster that DeSantis relied on in his executive order:

"WHEREAS, despite recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) “guidance,” forcing students to wear masks lacks a well-grounded scientific justification; indeed, a Brown University study analyzed COVID-19 data for schools in Florida and found no correlation with mask mandates;"

But Oster, the author of the Brown U study seems to still think that masks are beneficial.  The problem is that where mask mandates were in effect, they weren't always complied with.  And where there weren't mask mandates, some people wore masks anyway.  So the lack of correlation between mask mandates and covid infections isn't enough to conclude that mask mandates were not beneficial to school children.

So Oster herself says that this doesn't provide support for DeSantis.  We don't even have to pick on the fact that her field is not science nor medicine nor education, but economics.

Offline biobook

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #150 on: August 12, 2021, 04:46:35 PM »
Who is more likely to have covid, migrants who have been packed like sardines into trucks to be snuggled across central America, or people flying on vacation to CAN?

Who is more likely to be vaccinated?

Who is more likely to have the ability to isolate if they have covid when they get here?
None of those questions are relevant.  DeSantis was claiming that the current surge in FL comes from Mexican immigrants crossing the border into Texas.  But the surge is caused by the Delta variant, which came to FL at a time when Delta was low in Mexico and Central America.

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #151 on: August 12, 2021, 04:52:32 PM »
None of those questions are relevant.  DeSantis was claiming that the current surge in FL comes from Mexican immigrants crossing the border into Texas.  But the surge is caused by the Delta variant, which came to FL at a time when Delta was low in Mexico and Central America.
Oh, wait!  I got it now!  The migrants went first to India or England, picked up Delta there, and then turned around and brought it to Florida!  Right?

Online avromie7

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #152 on: August 12, 2021, 06:03:51 PM »
This mentions the paper by Emily Oster that DeSantis relied on in his executive order:

"WHEREAS, despite recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) “guidance,” forcing students to wear masks lacks a well-grounded scientific justification; indeed, a Brown University study analyzed COVID-19 data for schools in Florida and found no correlation with mask mandates;"

But Oster, the author of the Brown U study seems to still think that masks are beneficial.  The problem is that where mask mandates were in effect, they weren't always complied with.  And where there weren't mask mandates, some people wore masks anyway.  So the lack of correlation between mask mandates and covid infections isn't enough to conclude that mask mandates were not beneficial to school children.

So Oster herself says that this doesn't provide support for DeSantis.  We don't even have to pick on the fact that her field is not science nor medicine nor education, but economics.
If there is no correlation, why the need for a mandate? Anyone who wants to may continue wearing a mask.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #153 on: August 12, 2021, 06:10:12 PM »
The case for immigrants spreading covid is not that they came over the border to Florida, but many immigrants have been sent to other places in the US, and have then travelled on their own to places like FL.

I think all sane people can agree that while the border covid theory might have a drop of truth to it, it is political rhetoric and not what is driving the surge in FL or anywhere.
It is the same political rhetoric as anything else that has minimal effect like the eviction moratorium.

For as long as the Biden admin is willing to allow people over the border without testing, they should not be taking away peoples income from their property.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline biobook

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #154 on: August 12, 2021, 06:15:19 PM »
If there is no correlation, why the need for a mandate? Anyone who wants to may continue wearing a mask.
There's other research that shows that masks provide some benefit in lowering transmission.  DeSantis didn't do a thorough review of the literature.  He selected one article that he thought (wrongly) supported his view.

Wearing a mask helps keep transmission down in a classroom if everyone in the classroom is wearing it the whole time.  That's not usually possible, because some kids have medical or emotional issues that preclude mask-wearing, and lots of kids have trouble wearing it properly for long times.  But the closer they can get to that ideal, the better it works.

Saying "Anyone who wants to may continue wearing a mask" is like saying "Anyone who wants to can drive down the highway at 30 MPH."  Groups are able to function well only when individuals sometimes give up their own person desire for the sake of what's best for the group. 

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #155 on: August 12, 2021, 06:24:38 PM »
There's other research that shows that masks provide some benefit in lowering transmission.  DeSantis didn't do a thorough review of the literature.  He selected one article that he thought (wrongly) supported his view.

Wearing a mask helps keep transmission down in a classroom if everyone in the classroom is wearing it the whole time.  That's not usually possible, because some kids have medical or emotional issues that preclude mask-wearing, and lots of kids have trouble wearing it properly for long times.  But the closer they can get to that ideal, the better it works.

Saying "Anyone who wants to may continue wearing a mask" is like saying "Anyone who wants to can drive down the highway at 30 MPH."  Groups are able to function well only when individuals sometimes give up their own person desire for the sake of what's best for the group.
Are they really effective for long term indoor exposure? I think it was pretty well established that the benefits of masks are greatly reduced indoors the longer the exposure.

If a group of people feel that's in their best desire, they're more than welcome to wear masks. Why is it everyone else's responsibility? Maybe we should ban masks because some people feel their kids are negatively affected by not being able to see each others faces and communicate properly? Why is the only responsible thing to mandate everyone does what you want?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline biobook

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #156 on: August 12, 2021, 07:11:16 PM »
Let's start with the one thing we seem to agree on:

Why is the only responsible thing to mandate everyone does what you want?

We shouldn't mandate that everyone does what I want.  Or what you want.  We should mandate what is necessary for a lot of people to share the same space. 

In a survey of Floridians (not specifically parents of school age kids), 2/3 thought there should be a mask mandate in schools.   For yesterday's first day of school in Orange County, 95% seemed to support masking.  When the majority wants to follow the CDC advice for creating a safe classroom, those few who insist on going maskless are not simply making themselves more comfortable - they're also ruining it for everyone else. 
Quote
Are they really effective for long term indoor exposure? I think it was pretty well established that the benefits of masks are greatly reduced indoors the longer the exposure.
You're right - there are conditions that can raise or lower the effectiveness of masks.  But we're not able to control all those conditions, like holding classes outdoors instead of indoors. 

Vaccines would be the optimal tool for stopping transmission.  Until we have vaccines for young children, we have to ask what are our next-best options?  These include good ventilation, social distancing, handwashing, and masks.  These are additive, that is, each one alone is not that great, but when we rely on all of them together, they add up to pretty good protection. 
Quote
If a group of people feel that's in their best desire, they're more than welcome to wear masks. Why is it everyone else's responsibility?

Because we all share the same air supply.  If everyone is masked, the viral content of the air is lower.  Each person who unmasks may potentially raise the number of viral particles in the air we all breathe.  If someone wanted to come with their own oxygen supply, they wouldn't have to mask.  Other than as needed to use their own oxygen, of course. 

Just like people who prefer to drive 30 MPH will be asked to get off the highway because by following their own personal desire they make the highway unusable for everyone else.

Quote
Maybe we should ban masks because some people feel their kids are negatively affected by not being able to see each others faces and communicate properly?

No the justification for masks is based on the danger from the virus, and the need to communicate properly doesn't obviate that danger.  If the use of masks creates other problems, such as communication, then we do need to address those, but not by lowering our protection from the virus.   

Consider someone with a serious disease, for whom life-saving treatment may entail losing their hair.  The loss of hair is a problem, and should be addressed (wig, hat), but not by forgoing the life-saving treatment. 

Keep in mind that the mask mandates have been put in place for 2 weeks in some schools, a month in others.  The idea is to use them whenever the case rate is high in the local area.  They are not necessarily to be used for the entire school year, and in many classrooms there are frequent breaks and increased outdoor activities so that masks aren't used 5 hours at a stretch.

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #157 on: August 12, 2021, 07:32:30 PM »
Why is the only responsible thing to mandate everyone does what you want?
You mean like abortion? Hypocrisy at its finest.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

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Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #158 on: August 12, 2021, 07:47:56 PM »
Let's start with the one thing we seem to agree on:
 
We shouldn't mandate that everyone does what I want.  Or what you want.  We should mandate what is necessary for a lot of people to share the same space. 

In a survey of Floridians (not specifically parents of school age kids), 2/3 thought there should be a mask mandate in schools.   For yesterday's first day of school in Orange County, 95% seemed to support masking.  When the majority wants to follow the CDC advice for creating a safe classroom, those few who insist on going maskless are not simply making themselves more comfortable - they're also ruining it for everyone else.  You're right - there are conditions that can raise or lower the effectiveness of masks.  But we're not able to control all those conditions, like holding classes outdoors instead of indoors. 

Vaccines would be the optimal tool for stopping transmission.  Until we have vaccines for young children, we have to ask what are our next-best options?  These include good ventilation, social distancing, handwashing, and masks.  These are additive, that is, each one alone is not that great, but when we rely on all of them together, they add up to pretty good protection. 
Because we all share the same air supply.  If everyone is masked, the viral content of the air is lower.  Each person who unmasks may potentially raise the number of viral particles in the air we all breathe.  If someone wanted to come with their own oxygen supply, they wouldn't have to mask.  Other than as needed to use their own oxygen, of course. 

Just like people who prefer to drive 30 MPH will be asked to get off the highway because by following their own personal desire they make the highway unusable for everyone else.

No the justification for masks is based on the danger from the virus, and the need to communicate properly doesn't obviate that danger.  If the use of masks creates other problems, such as communication, then we do need to address those, but not by lowering our protection from the virus.   

Consider someone with a serious disease, for whom life-saving treatment may entail losing their hair.  The loss of hair is a problem, and should be addressed (wig, hat), but not by forgoing the life-saving treatment. 

Keep in mind that the mask mandates have been put in place for 2 weeks in some schools, a month in others.  The idea is to use them whenever the case rate is high in the local area.  They are not necessarily to be used for the entire school year, and in many classrooms there are frequent breaks and increased outdoor activities so that masks aren't used 5 hours at a stretch.
I think our biggest disagreement is that I think government should not be mandating anything unless it absolutely must. IMO even if you can show why your position is better for the public, personal freedom should generally take precedence. I am actually very worried about where this level of government control will lead to, I haven't heard a good argument for why we should have mask mandates now for children but not every year during flu season. At this point it's used to cast doubt on the mask mandates, but in the future it will be used as backing for a mask mandate every year.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline CountValentine

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Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half