Afghanistan Falls To The Taliban After US Withdrawal

[Dan]

In Trump era, they always agreed.

Erm, no.

[avromie7]

This was Biden's call and he gets the blame.

Now for it makes no difference on how he pulled out and the results would have been the same.
Taliban is in power either way. They are going to to execute and carry on their rule by terror either way. In a year, 2 or any amount it will not have mattered either way. When they execute women, gays and other they disagree with we will not hear a peep. So if you want to be disgusted by the current optics then so be it. Just don't fool yourself this timing of the pull out will matter one bit.

There are 2 issues at hand

Should the US have left Afghanistan?
There are 2 sides to this debate. I personally am unsure, possibly just because I'm not educated enough about it or because there are 2 bad choices. Personally, I think the current situation until Biden pulled everyone out in middle of the night was the best because there was relative calm without any US casualties in months, but I'm willing to assume that situation couldn't last much longer. Let's assume that objectively the choice to leave is the proper choice, Biden is not to blame for what happens to the afghan civilians, because they are not our responsibility.

Now that we're working with the assumption that the best option is to leave, what is the best way to go about it? We can either leave in an orderly manner where we remove all Americans and American allies who we owe the basic decency to not leave them behind to be slaughtered, as well as make sure all our military equipment doesn't end up in our enemy's hands. Or we can leave in middle of the night where the embassy staff is left scrambling and trying to leave in the middle of the night as well as abandon out allies and allow our enemies to take all our military equipment.

On the first issue there are 2 sides and they each have merit. I don't blame Biden (at least based on what I currently know) for choosing to leave, I do blame Biden for doing it in such a haphazard manner putting the lives of Americans and our allies in harms way for no reason.

[CountValentine]

Erm, no.

Agree. 

[avromie7]

There are 2 issues at hand

Should the US have left Afghanistan?
There are 2 sides to this debate. I personally am unsure, possibly just because I'm not educated enough about it or because there are 2 bad choices. Personally, I think the current situation until Biden pulled everyone out in middle of the night was the best because there was relative calm without any US casualties in months, but I'm willing to assume that situation couldn't last much longer. Let's assume that objectively the choice to leave is the proper choice, Biden is not to blame for what happens to the afghan civilians, because they are not our responsibility.

Now that we're working with the assumption that the best option is to leave, what is the best way to go about it? We can either leave in an orderly manner where we remove all Americans and American allies who we owe the basic decency to not leave them behind to be slaughtered, as well as make sure all our military equipment doesn't end up in our enemy's hands. Or we can leave in middle of the night where the embassy staff is left scrambling and trying to leave in the middle of the night as well as abandon out allies and allow our enemies to take all our military equipment.

On the first issue there are 2 sides and they each have merit. I don't blame Biden (at least based on what I currently know) for choosing to leave, I do blame Biden for doing it in such a haphazard manner putting the lives of Americans and our allies in harms way for no reason.

I should add, Biden has been discussing the first issue, and had it been done in an organized manner we would have heard both sides in the news and opinion pieces for weeks. He's completely ignoring the boondoggle exit strategy because there is no excuse. Any discussion of whether or not we should have left is covering up the real issue at hand which is the disastrous exit.

[CountValentine]

What joke? Is pointing out that some people voted for Biden because they were upset about Trump's tweets and this disaster is a result of that choice a joke?

She accompanied the tweet with a picture of the Afghans trying to leave. "They" in that tweet is referring to those trying to get on the plane. There are reports some fell from that plane to there death. I don't think any of them were allowed to vote in the US let alone for Biden.

This is the hypocrisy that is so disgusting by many members here. Everything is political. 

[Toasted]

Erm, no.

Agree. 

Agree to disagree.

[CountValentine]

Any discussion of whether or not we should have left is covering up the real issue at hand which is the disastrous exit.

Bad for D's @avromie7 will say it was disastrous or something along the same lines.
You really don't need to post as we all know what it will be.
I gave you a chance in the other thread to show you can be even slightly objective and you failed.

[avromie7]

Bad for D's @avromie7 will say it was disastrous or something along the same lines.
You really don't need to post as we all know what it will be.
I gave you a chance in the other thread to show you can be even slightly objective and you failed.

Way to go! When all else fails, you can always fall back on an ad hominem attack.

It's mind boggling that you can't see how terrible this is, even CNN knows it.

[CountValentine]

Way to go! When all else fails, you can always fall back on an ad hominem attack.

It's mind boggling that you can't see how terrible this is, even CNN knows it.

Yes it is terrible. Yes it is on Biden. What part of that don't you understand?
The issue is it makes no difference once the decision was made to pull out.
There was no ad hominin attack. Just the fact you are 100% political with your posts. I will bump the other thread to give you another chance to show I am wrong.

[avromie7]

Yes it is terrible. Yes it is on Biden. What part of that don't you understand?
The issue is it makes no difference once the decision was made to pull out.

What does this even mean?

[CountValentine]

What does this even mean?

That country will be ruled by terror for years to come. Thousands will be executed. Pull out over night or over a month makes no difference as thousands+ will die over the coming years. The current optics will go away but the executions are just starting.

[Dan]

That country will be ruled by terror for years to come. Thousands will be executed. Pull out over night or over a month makes no difference as thousands+ will die over the coming years. The current optics will go away but the executions are just starting.

It's not our job to stop every unjust execution in every country.
It is our job to get out Americans and wartime collaborators who qualify for a US visa.

[efflpetzel]

This is the hypocrisy that is so disgusting by many members here. Everything is political. 

Don't kid yourself, it's been like that for the past few years in this country.

Had we stuck to Trump's policy & withdrew three months ago then it would've all be fine no matter how bungled the withdrawal would've been.

It's rediculous seeing the media coverage suggesting we shouldn't have left due to the loss of woman's rights & progress in Afghanistan, so now we're supposed to invade half the world because of their lack of human rights?
When will people understand that the USA can't fix the world.

Almost all the wars we're gotten ourselves involved in since WW2 have been a unmitigated disaster with a huge toll on our vets & nothing to show for it

[mention]Dan [/mention]
Bagram would have 100% seen similar scenes to what we we saw yesterday in HK airport.
when you have tens of thousands of desperate people swarming an area, climbing walls, ripping barbed wire & breaking down doors,
Short of shooting unarmed civilians there's not much you can do in the moment.

[mention]aygart [/mention]
No Americans were in danger much less got hurt.

To those suggesting we should've listened to the intelligence community, well they've been lying through their teeth about the Afgans for years, they lack a basic understanding of how Afganistan works,

Read the inspector generals report on the Pentagons handling the Afgan Army, it beggars belief

It might prick our pride as Americans seeing the rushed withdrawal & aftermath but anyone with their eyes open could've predicted this year's ago

[avromie7]

Don't kid yourself, it's been like that for the past few years in this country.

Had we stuck to Trump's policy & withdrew three months ago then it would've all be fine no matter how bungled the withdrawal would've been.

It's rediculous seeing the media coverage suggesting we shouldn't have left due to the loss of woman's rights & progress in Afghanistan, so now we're supposed to invade half the world because of their lack of human rights?
When will people understand that the USA can't fix the world.

Almost all the wars we're gotten ourselves involved in since WW2 have been a unmitigated disaster with a huge toll on our vets & nothing to show for it

[mention]Dan [/mention]
Bagram would have 100% seen similar scenes to what we we saw yesterday in HK airport.
when you have tens of thousands of desperate people swarming an area, climbing walls, ripping barbed wire & breaking down doors,
Short of shooting unarmed civilians there's not much you can do in the moment.

[mention]aygart [/mention]
No Americans were in danger much less got hurt.

To those suggesting we should've listened to the intelligence community, well they've been lying through their teeth about the Afgans for years, they lack a basic understanding of how Afganistan works,

Read the inspector generals report on the Pentagons handling the Afgan Army, it beggars belief

It might prick our pride as Americans seeing the rushed withdrawal & aftermath but anyone with their eyes open could've predicted this year's ago

None of this is the issue at hand.

[CountValentine]

Don't kid yourself, it's been like that for the past few years in this country.

I am not kidding myself. I fully understand what is going on but it doesn't have to be that way.
Would you say your posts are political based or on what you believe should be done?
If I am not mistaken you believe if it was the last admin or the current one pulling out was the right thing to do, correct?
I can disagree but respect that position. What I can't respect is someone just going on what one party says.

[CountValentine]

None of this is the issue at hand.

There are many issues in this thread. Some make the current admin look bad, some make the past admin look bad and some make members look bad. We all now which one you only want to talk about.

[jj1000]

and some make members look bad.

Lashon hara applies to yourself too, y'know?!

[CountValentine]

It's not our job to stop every unjust execution in every country.
It is our job to get out Americans and wartime collaborators who qualify for a US visa.

The airport remains open with flights leaving every hour. They estimate 5-10k people leaving each day. How many are we responsible for?

[efflpetzel]

None of this is the issue at hand.

How so?

You blame Biden for the bungled withdrawal.

My answer is that these scenes would have always happened once the Americans left. It would've happened a year ago under Trump now under Biden or ten years from now.

Afganistan was always going to fall like a house of cards the minute we left, and there was always going to be chaos as we left.

The US deluding ourselves that the Afgans have a strong Army/Police/civil society is the failure of our defense and intelligence community, amongst their many failures.

[CountValentine]

Lashon hara applies to yourself too, y'know?!

Have no idea what the first two words mean and kind of ignorant to that.
Either way last time I checked I was a member here so what I posted can apply to me also.