Author Topic: Trust in medical expertise  (Read 4376 times)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2021, 12:46:38 PM »
@Yehuda57 will be able to rebut this better than I can, but it is both not true and also not helpful to single out any group by religion and even more so when it is not relevant to what you are discussing.

If memory serves, the Jewish community was above the national average for MMR vaccinations, and certainly way above the vaccination rate of the "Follow the Science" progressives in California during their 2014 measles outbreak. The source of pre-covid frum anti vax sentiment came directly from liberal crunchy mom types and has no source in Judaism, halacha, or frum culture. There were a relative handful of anti vaxxers in Brooklyn, and with the help of the media, they were amplified to sound like they were a movement. Crown Heights schools kicked out unvaccinated kids. It ended up being a couple of families. zeh hu.

The media portrayal of us being unvaxxed wackos led directly to anti-Semitism, with people cursing out Jewish kids in parks and screaming at parents to remove their disease-riddled kids from public places. Fauci's rhetoric will lead directly to more of that.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2021, 12:49:36 PM »
If memory serves, the Jewish community was above the national average for MMR vaccinations, and certainly way above the vaccination rate of the "Follow the Science" progressives in California during their 2014 measles outbreak. The source of pre-covid frum anti vax sentiment came directly from liberal crunchy mom types and has no source in Judaism, halacha, or frum culture. There were a relative handful of anti vaxxers in Brooklyn, and with the help of the media, they were amplified to sound like they were a movement. Crown Heights schools kicked out unvaccinated kids. It ended up being a couple of families. zeh hu.

The media portrayal of us being unvaxxed wackos led directly to anti-Semitism, with people cursing out Jewish kids in parks and screaming at parents to remove their disease-riddled kids from public places. Fauci's rhetoric will lead directly to more of that.

Adds to his credibility or detracts?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2021, 12:52:59 PM »
Happen or caused by? (note that my filter blocks YouTube and I am relying on how the article quotes him)
Happened to unvaccinated hassidim is what he said. But you'd have to hear it for context.

So again, a measles outbreak didn't happen in the hassidic community or it did happen in the hassidic community?

And also, it was relevant showing herd immunity has limits and no way to know what that limit is for covid at this point.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2021, 12:54:25 PM »
Fauci's rhetoric will lead directly to more of that.
True for any community with a blemish on it when people talk about it.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2021, 12:57:33 PM »
Adds to his credibility or detracts?

Should it? It should detract. Will it? I doubt it will move the needle on his trustworthiness either way. It will be used by his detractors to show him in bad light, and be used by his supporters to show him as a truth teller.
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Offline biobook

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2021, 12:59:26 PM »
I personally know MD's that don't recommend the vaccine for recovered patients, pregnant women, and even people on a cocktail of other drugs. 

I don't want to take this off track, but just want to point out that vaccines were widely shunned for pregnant women in Dec/Jan, but clinical studies have since shown that the risk is much greater from covid, and the current advice for pregnant women is more as ckmk47 says below,
A doctor I know from the front lines considers pregnancy a 'risk factor' for getting a bad case of covid, (especially in conjunction with other mild risk factors such as mildly obese)  and recommends that  pregnant women get the vaccine. (not the J&J)

But you raise an interesting issue, that when expert doctors impart their advice, it isn't uniformly adopted by health practitioners.  Some may have heard the earlier advice and used it in their practice, and are slow to accept improvements. 

One (data-based!) example of this happened with treatment of stomach ulcers.  For decades, they were treatment was a bland diet -lots of pudding and ice cream - but in the 1990s, scientists found that a short treatment with antibiotics could cure them.  Several years after this became standard treatment, a survey found that many doctors had still not adopted this treatment in their practice.  Something about old dogs and new tricks.

So there are really two kinds of disagreements:  One is the changes that occur over time, as scientific knowledge evolves, and the experts learn more about the disease and its treatment, so effectively disagree with their own prior advice.  The other is the changes that occur over geographical space, as personal physicians in different areas interpret that advice and use it differently, so disagree with other physicians advising other patients.

Quote
Also again, even now you have tons of MD's disagreeing on so much. With school starting each school has their MD they consult with, some require weekly testing, some require masks, some require nothing, some require one test after vacations, etc etc. There is no one answer to many problems like people want there to be, therefore they decide to just phooey the whole system, as it seems no one agrees on what to do anyway.
This is an example of that second kind of disagreement.  On the one hand, it makes sense that MDs would give different advice to different schools - The schools may differ in number of kids/class, size of the rooms, ventilation, length of classes, and much more, so they really do need customized application of the general advice to their particular situation.  On the other hand, different MDs may be more knowledgeable than others. 

But here too, I don't accept those who "just phooey the whole system".  At least in our community, we say AYLOR, and don't give it all up just because different LORs disagree.

OMG - You guys are too fast.  18 new replies?  I'll post this anyway before reading....

Offline iwlw2

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2021, 01:03:31 PM »
True for any community with a blemish on it when people talk about it.
But there is a word for people who generalize about a community some of whoms members have a blemish (which has nothing to do with the general community at large as @Yehuda57 pointed out), ..... He should know better.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2021, 01:08:52 PM »
Happened to unvaccinated hassidim is what he said. But you'd have to hear it for context.

So again, a measles outbreak didn't happen in the hassidic community or it did happen in the hassidic community?

And also, it was relevant showing herd immunity has limits and no way to know what that limit is for covid at this point.

He said it happened because their vaccination rates dipped below the herd immunity levels. Their vaccination rates were above the NY average. He could have made the same point by referencing NY or California without saying Jews.

True for any community with a blemish on it when people talk about it.

When was the last time a Hollywood liberal was told to take their kids out of a public playground because they have measles? Naming a specific minority as being unvaccinated carries unique risks. Why did he single out Jews in NY for being below herd immunity and not liberals in California?
When you take public positions like this, you have to take into account the full picture. Minority groups like Orthodox Jews face a high level of bigotry, and you have to be super careful about what and how you say things. What public health benefit was there in him naming an already targeted minority?
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2021, 01:14:52 PM »
I don't want to take this off track, but just want to point out that vaccines were widely shunned for pregnant women in Dec/Jan, but clinical studies have since shown that the risk is much greater from covid, and the current advice for pregnant women is more as ckmk47 says below,


A community OBGYN was speaking about the covid vaccine's safety and efficacy, and debunking the fertility claims, and said he does not recommend women in their first trimester get vaccinated. Not because it isn't safe, it is, but the first trimester has a much higher rate of miscarriages, and he wouldn't want a young woman to suffer through the guilt and pain of attributing a lost pregnancy to getting the vaccine, r"l.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2021, 01:28:37 PM »
Happened to unvaccinated hassidim is what he said. But you'd have to hear it for context.

So again, a measles outbreak didn't happen in the hassidic community or it did happen in the hassidic community?

And also, it was relevant showing herd immunity has limits and no way to know what that limit is for covid at this point.
It was relevant that it was within a religious group?
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2021, 01:32:44 PM »
If memory serves

I'm not sure it changes much, but I believe your memory may be off. IINM, the outbreak was within very frum chassidic groups in Israel and NY, and I believe the vax rates in those communities were (are?) much lower than the general Jewish communities.
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Offline biobook

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2021, 01:35:32 PM »
I think there has been an evolution in our society which has led to this distrust.  We have become an entitled, arrogant society that throws away items instead of washing or fixing them and cancels that which we don't like or don't have the patience to fully understand.  Since we know best (and are "fully informed" with Professor Google/Dr. Google), we now question, distrust, and cancel the medical profession, as well.
Interesting perspective!  I've also heard people make outlandish claims based on Google, but at the same time, much of the information that I find credible has come via Google.

Do we need instruction in how to better use Google?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2021, 01:49:08 PM »
Another thing that erodes public trust is stuff like this.

https://5townscentral.com/2021/08/25/watch-how-dr-fauci-calls-out-hassidic-jewish-people-as-fault-for-measles-outbreak/
What to make sure I understand and not put words in your mouth. Do you mean the article says he blamed the Jewish community when he did no such thing?

Those who think Fauci is arrogant, speaks in absolutes or does not know what he is talking about should watch the clip in the link.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2021, 01:50:27 PM »
I'm not sure it changes much, but I believe your memory may be off. IINM, the outbreak was within very frum chassidic groups in Israel and NY, and I believe the vax rates in those communities were (are?) much lower than the general Jewish communities.
It was definitely within a group of unvaxxed. The most likely reason is it was them is because they happened to be the ones exposed to someone who brought it over from England. (from a purely scientific perspective-obviously the real reason is hashgocha pratis)
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Offline aygart

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2021, 01:53:19 PM »
What to make sure I understand and not put words in your mouth. Do you mean the article says he blamed the Jewish community when he did no such thing?

Those who think Fauci is arrogant, speaks in absolutes or does not know what he is talking about should watch the clip in the link.
(note that my filter blocks YouTube and I am relying on how the article quotes him)
Are you saying that the article was poor hjournalism and that he did not say it was caused by the hassidic community? What did he say and how did he reference the community. I presume that at least he mentioned them.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2021, 01:58:50 PM »
What did he say and how did he reference the community.

Talking about what the threshold needs to be for herd immunity:

Quote
...you know what that number is, because when you get below that number, you start to see outbreaks, like we saw some time ago in the New York City area with Hasidic Jewish people who were not getting vaccinated....
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2021, 01:59:49 PM »
I'm not sure it changes much, but I believe your memory may be off. IINM, the outbreak was within very frum chassidic groups in Israel and NY, and I believe the vax rates in those communities were (are?) much lower than the general Jewish communities.

There is no real way to separate Orthodox Jews from the wider population in terms of vaccination rates. I believe people tried to gather data from local pediatricians to come up with numbers. Plus, Chassidish Williamsburg numbers would reflect the surrounding kombucha sipping hipsters who have lower than average vaccination rates. I'd be willing to bet Orthodox Jewish Brooklyn had higher MMR rates than Hipster and Park Slope Brooklyn
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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2021, 02:05:07 PM »
There is no real way to separate Orthodox Jews from the wider population in terms of vaccination rates. I believe people tried to gather data from local pediatricians to come up with numbers. Plus, Chassidish Williamsburg numbers would reflect the surrounding kombucha sipping hipsters who have lower than average vaccination rates. I'd be willing to bet Orthodox Jewish Brooklyn had higher MMR rates than Hipster and Park Slope Brooklyn

Regardless, all he said was that there was a measles outbreak in NYC among Hasidic Jewish people who weren't getting vaccinated. He didn't blame anything on Jews. He just illustrated how, when vaccination rates fall below a certain threshold in a "herd," outbreaks occur (as opposed to a few isolated cases). I'm not thrilled he picked that particular example, because we don't need more negative attention and all that comes with it, but what he said was factual.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2021, 02:07:24 PM »
Are you saying that the article was poor hjournalism and that he did not say it was caused by the hassidic community?
Yes
What did he say and how did he reference the community. I presume that at least he mentioned them.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2021, 02:22:58 PM »
Regardless, all he said was that there was a measles outbreak in NYC among Hasidic Jewish people who weren't getting vaccinated. He didn't blame anything on Jews. He just illustrated how, when vaccination rates fall below a certain threshold in a "herd," outbreaks occur (as opposed to a few isolated cases). I'm not thrilled he picked that particular example, because we don't need more negative attention and all that comes with it, but what he said was factual.

This is infuriating. You have to really parse his words to see if he's saying the outbreak was because Chassidic Jews as a whole don't vaccinate or the specific outbreak was within a select few who don't. He didn't use the word among you use here, he said with. Regardless, the fact that it's even a discussion is nuts. There was no need for him to single out Jews. It didn't strengthen his point, it is likely not true that Jews vaccinate less, and it causes REAL harm to actual humans. We both know he would NEVER speak about black or Latino communities being disproportionately under-vaccinated for covid so flippantly, especially in the context of ruining herd immunity for everyone else who is "doing their part". He's THE public face of covid and even he can't be more careful with his words.
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