Trust in medical expertise

[Yehuda57]

You really think this is what I meant? I know this and other issues you have personal experiences.
It is hard to discuss these issues with you. I try to choose my words carefully but that still doesn't work.

My apologies for misreading.

[CountValentine]

My apologies for misreading.

No need for apologies. I love when someone is passionate about things.

[aygart]

Here's another one of my unpopular opinions: perhaps we should be more bothered that the first thing that comes to the mind of any ID doc regarding recent measles outbreaks is us. I get the anti-Semitism thing. The woke whataboutisms irk me, but I get those, too. Ultimately, though, we are the most recent and memorable example of an outbreak of a disease which was supposed to be gone. That fact bothers me a whole hell of a lot more than Fauci mentioning it in passing.

(I'm a little sensitive to the issue, because I happen to live in a community with a large anti-vax contingent. I don't believe it's as "fringe" in frum circles as we'd like to believe. I'm sure there are stats somewhere that prove me wrong.)

I am extremely bothered by the anti-vax contingent in frum communities.

[AsherO]

As for doctors quoting the CDC, in whom public trust has eroded: it’s darned if you do, darned if you don’t. If you reference them then you’re losing credibility for quoting an agency people don’t trust, if you don’t then you lose credibility because you aren’t citing sources.

I guess you can substitute “CDC” with “research”, “the scientific community”, “what we know at this point”, or “sources I trust”.

[Lurker]

As for doctors quoting the CDC, in whom public trust has eroded: it’s darned if you do, darned if you don’t. If you reference them then you’re losing credibility for quoting an agency people don’t trust, if you don’t then you lose credibility because you aren’t citing sources.

I guess you can substitute “CDC” with “research”, “the scientific community”, “what we know at this point”, or “sources I trust”.

IINM, CDC guidance often (always?) comes with footnotes with the sources for their conclusions. Just quote the source studies.

[hvaces42]

As for doctors quoting the CDC, in whom public trust has eroded: it’s darned if you do, darned if you don’t. If you reference them then you’re losing credibility for quoting an agency people don’t trust, if you don’t then you lose credibility because you aren’t citing sources.

I guess you can substitute “CDC” with “research”, “the scientific community”, “what we know at this point”, or “sources I trust”.

Call the medical referral hotline to ask what you should do regarding a certain condition or whether you should go to a certain hospital for that condition and then ask for data to back up the recommendation. Asking for reasoning and making that decision on your own is ok. Asking for data...do you trust them or are you forum shopping?

[CountValentine]

Is there distrust in the FDA?

[Yehuda57]

Here's another one of my unpopular opinions: perhaps we should be more bothered that the first thing that comes to the mind of any ID doc regarding recent measles outbreaks is us. I get the anti-Semitism thing. The woke whataboutisms irk me, but I get those, too. Ultimately, though, we are the most recent and memorable example of an outbreak of a disease which was supposed to be gone. That fact bothers me a whole hell of a lot more than Fauci mentioning it in passing.

(I'm a little sensitive to the issue, because I happen to live in a community with a large anti-vax contingent. I don't believe it's as "fringe" in frum circles as we'd like to believe. I'm sure there are stats somewhere that prove me wrong.)

Do you live where the anti vax folks that were kicked out of Brooklyn schools had to run to to form their own school? If so, on behalf of NY, I am so sorry!

I am also extremely bothered by the anti vaxers, particularly editors of mainstream publications (coughncncough) who amplify their voices and mainstream their views. But the issue was Fauci's public statements, not frum anti vax rates.

I think the anti vaxers are MUCH louder than the general population, Anecdotally, for every anti vaxxer screaming from the hilltops, there are a few hundred people trying to avoid them and the discussion altogether who don't utter a word. You are right, I can produce stats to prove you wrong, the NYS school immunization tracker, which shows the rates were high even before the post measles crackdown. Since measles, the schools will get fined and so they don't accept unvaccinated kids (at least in Crown Heights). I have not looked through that data, but this guy says it is 96%

[Euclid]

Is there distrust in the FDA?

Yup. Exhibit A: not eating cholov stam

[aygart]

Yup. Exhibit A: not eating cholov stam

[aygart]

Do you live where the anti vax folks that were kicked out of Brooklyn schools had to run to to form their own school? If so, on behalf of NY, I am so sorry!

I am also extremely bothered by the anti vaxers, particularly editors of mainstream publications (coughncncough) who amplify their voices and mainstream their views. But the issue was Fauci's public statements, not frum anti vax rates.

I think the anti vaxers are MUCH louder than the general population, Anecdotally, for every anti vaxxer screaming from the hilltops, there are a few hundred people trying to avoid them and the discussion altogether who don't utter a word. You are right, I can produce stats to prove you wrong, the NYS school immunization tracker, which shows the rates were high even before the post measles crackdown. Since measles, the schools will get fined and so they don't accept unvaccinated kids (at least in Crown Heights). I have not looked through that data, but this guy says it is 96%

Case in point: The social distanced event in Lakewood.

[Lurker]

Do you live where the anti vax folks that were kicked out of Brooklyn schools had to run to to form their own school? If so, on behalf of NY, I am so sorry!

I am also extremely bothered by the anti vaxers, particularly editors of mainstream publications (coughncncough) who amplify their voices and mainstream their views. But the issue was Fauci's public statements, not frum anti vax rates.

I think the anti vaxers are MUCH louder than the general population, Anecdotally, for every anti vaxxer screaming from the hilltops, there are a few hundred people trying to avoid them and the discussion altogether who don't utter a word. You are right, I can produce stats to prove you wrong, the NYS school immunization tracker, which shows the rates were high even before the post measles crackdown. Since measles, the schools will get fined and so they don't accept unvaccinated kids (at least in Crown Heights). I have not looked through that data, but this guy says it is 96%

I don't believe anyone here was kicked out of CH (or NY in general), and they tend to be very quiet here about their personal choices.

The issue is anti-Semitic tropes about Jews spreading disease. Your issue with Fauci's comment is that he may have inadvertently strengthened those tropes and given fuel where none was needed. My issue is that our anti-vax contigent is large enough that Fauci's most recent example was us. Ironically, I think your NY anecdotes make us look even worse. You're using them to show our exceptional vax rates. I see a community that didn't care if people vaccinated or not until the government mandated it and fined non-compliance. Tell me Fauci's the problem here.

[neveryou]

Yup. Exhibit A: not eating cholov stam

Whats cholov stam?
Never heard of it, I only know of cholov akum or cholov yisroel

[aygart]

I see a community that didn't care if people vaccinated or not until the government mandated it and fined non-compliance.

This is simply a bunch of bunk.

[Yehuda57]

I don't believe anyone here was kicked out of CH (or NY in general), and they tend to be very quiet here about their personal choices.

There is a school in FL that is referred to (at least here in NY) as "The Anti Vax School" - not all that quiet.

 I see a community that didn't care if people vaccinated or not until the government mandated it and fined non-compliance.

Kicking a kid out of school is a massive step to take. Even rabonim who are extremely vocal about the need to vaccinate stop short of saying kids should be kicked out of schools. Fact is, the schools all mandated vaccines and required them for admission. But there was a handful, literally, who still refused despite many repeated requests and threats. Understandably, the schools balked at punishing the kids for the parents' behavior, until a) there was a measles outbreak, b) NYS brought down the hammer. They could have kept those kids in school and had the parents pay the fines if they so chose, which I believe at least one family tried.

Tell me Fauci's the problem here.

Today, the issue at hand was Fauci's comment. So yes, he is the problem. There's another thread about vaccinations in general that dates back to when "Lurker" still meant something.

[Lurker]

This is simply a bunch of bunk.

You're right. It was a gross exaggeration, because people did care. Let's rephrase to say little was done about it.

There is a school in FL that is referred to (at least here in NY) as "The Anti Vax School" - not all that quiet.

There's more than one, unfortunately.

Today, the issue at hand was Fauci's comment. So yes, he is the problem.

We've disagreed on this point before. I don't think either of our minds are changing on this.

There's another thread about vaccinations in general that dates back to when "Lurker" still meant something.

Touche. I tried making lurking great again, but DDF arguments are crack and I'm weak.

[aygart]

You're right. It was a gross exaggeration, because people did care. Let's rephrase to say little was done about it.

There is not much to do short of throwing kids out of the school.

[Lurker]

There is not much to do short of throwing kids out of the school.

Considering how many people follow rabbinic medical guidance to a fault, there's definitely more that could have been done (and can still be done). IIRC, I think a large part of the measles outbreak was a result of apathy and ignorance towards the vaccines, rather than ideological opposition to them.

[aygart]

Considering how many people follow rabbinic medical guidance to a fault, there's definitely more that could have been done (and can still be done). IIRC, I think a large part of the measles outbreak was a result of apathy and ignorance towards the vaccines, rather than ideological opposition to them.

There is definitely a level of complacency among some. There is no shortage of parents who are very behind in their children's well visits. If when they do come in for a well visit the office ran out of a specific shot it will take time for them to get it.

[AsherO]

IINM, CDC guidance often (always?) comes with footnotes with the sources for their conclusions. Just quote the source studies.

Nope, at least not IME, public facing information/FAQ-style overview pages like this one (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/variant.html) don’t seem to, it’s link purgatory and even if one link (maybe to NIH or the like) has citations, it’s not footnotes for any specific claim on the CDC. pages.