Bought on sale and got back more

[bubbles]

Does jaywalking constitute chillul Hashem? Not the topic under discussion.

This is not about personal feelings. This is about facts. And your statement "...unless you are coming from a legitimate source I don't think you can call anyone out about it" is so patently (and seemingly purposely) naive it boggles the mind.

I know a few prosecutors who would be licking their chops after getting their hands on someone who perpetrated this scheme on an unsuspecting merchant to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.


Try this one on for size. There are many state laws like it.

first off congrads on number 3000 

and please fix the link to the state law

[AJK]

first off congrads on number 3000 

and please fix the link to the state law

Thanks.

Fixed.

[bubbles]

Fixed.

what is that link showing any more than your previous one?

[AJK]

what is that link showing any more than your previous one?

One is a Wiki article. The other is an actual NY State Criminal Law.

But you knew that already...

[bubbles]

One is a Wiki article. The other is an actual NY State Criminal Law.

But you knew that already...

exactly! so the question remains why was that an appropriate response to

Thank you for the link to fraud but does this really constitute fraud when technically you are staying within the guidelines of their policies?

[AJK]

exactly! so the question remains why was that an appropriate response to

Stores policies ≠ criminal law provisions.

As I said:

I know a few prosecutors who would be licking their chops after getting their hands on someone who perpetrated this scheme on an unsuspecting merchant to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

[HelpMe]

...does this really constitute fraud when technically you are staying within the guidelines of their policies?

"We guarantee your satisfaction on every product we sell with a full refund."

[bubbles]

Stores policies ≠ criminal law provisions.

Also very true! and yet my question still remains that if it is in the guidelines of the stores policies does it still constitute fraud?

I know a few prosecutors who would be licking their chops after getting their hands on someone who perpetrated this scheme on an unsuspecting merchant to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

you spoke to them about this or you are assuming based on how you feel?

[AJK]

Also very true! and yet my question still remains that if it is in the guidelines of the stores policies does it still constitute fraud?

For the second time,

Stores policies ≠ criminal law provisions.

Whether or not it violates store policy is irrelevant to the question of criminal fraud.

you spoke to them about this or you are assuming based on how you feel?

Good friends of mine in the Manhattan DA's office. We do lunch often

[bubbles]

Whether or not it violates store policy is irrelevant to the question of criminal fraud.

Interesting. My understanding was that if the store allows you to do it then it's not fraud. So you're saying that since their intentions for allowing returns was not for this purpose then it's fraud?

[AJK]

Interesting. My understanding was that if the store allows you to do it then it's not fraud. So you're saying that since their intentions for allowing returns was not for this purpose then it's fraud?

Riddle me this: Do you think, even for a second, that if the store was aware of these activities schemes, they wouldn't perma-ban them?

Think about it.

If after having thought about it, you think not, take a jaunt over to FWF and see for yourself

[Dan]

Riddle me this: Do you think, even for a second, that if the store was aware of these activities schemes, they wouldn't perma-ban them?

That's why said members (including HelpMe) have been banned from so many stores and payment processors, and they even brag about it.
The trick IMHO is to know your limits.  To make bank without losing the privilege of shopping at Costco for the rest of your life.

Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.  There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.

[whYME]

Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.  There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.

I think that's kinda what "HelpMe" was trying to say with this post:

Ethical behavior and any deals forum have very little in common.

[Name Changed]

That's why said members (including HelpMe) have been banned from so many stores and payment processors, and they even brag about it.
The trick IMHO is to know your limits.  To make bank without losing the privilege of shopping at Costco for the rest of your life.

Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.  There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.

+1

To many threads get off topic and talk about ethical....

[AJK]

Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.  There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.

I'd agree, but I reserve the right to comment on (and question) posts which so fly in the face of accepted norms that they don't pass even the "smell" test.

Use some common sense... f'real.

I think that's kinda what "HelpMe" was trying to say with this post:

Ethical behavior and any deals forum have very little in common.

That's still an inane comment, IMHO.

...for host of reasons.

[AsherO]

Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread. There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.

I've been saying this forever.

You're (virtually) the only one in place who can set this up. Can we please get an ethics (halacha?) forum where people can hash these things out ad infinitum/nauseum?

[HelpMe]

That's why said members (including HelpMe) have been banned from so many stores and payment processors, and they even brag about it.
The trick IMHO is to know your limits.  To make bank without losing the privilege of shopping at Costco for the rest of your life.

Now this is pretty funny. I get hammered for not providing more information then when I do I get it thrown back in my face that I am bragging.

What most members are doing with payment processors is against their T&C’s. It does not matter if you are doing it for $1 or 10k it is still against the T&C’s. I know ahead of time at some point I will be banned by a payment processor so others can learn what the limit might be. Is this a bad thing?

Buying items and returning them just to earn points/miles was talked on this forum before I joined. Where was the outrage then? Is this just a case where it is OK to steal a little but not OK to do it for large amounts?

I try to look at everything with an open mind. I was hoping it was just my style of posting that is the cause of all the hatred towards me. It gets to a point you have to start looking for other reasons. Maybe I will watch the first two episodes of Verplanck to see if I can find the answer.

[Ergel]

You are correct about the payment processing, which is why I don't do them. I think the outrage in this thread comes from your statement about lack odd ethics.

In general it probably comes from the scale which you are doing it on which I agree with you has no effect on its ethics and because you do it systematically

[Dan]

Now this is pretty funny. I get hammered for not providing more information then when I do I get it thrown back in my face that I am bragging.

Didn't mean to say you bragged about it, I was referring to the threads on FWF where people are practically giddy about about how many bans they have.

[HelpMe]

I think the outrage in this thread comes from your statement about lack odd ethics.

Hopefully you and some others realize that I originally did not choose the best words to make my point and did my best to clear it up.