Poll

Guilty or not guilty?

Guilty
5 (5.1%)
Not Guilty
73 (73.7%)
Have no idea
21 (21.2%)

Total Members Voted: 99

Author Topic: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?  (Read 24036 times)

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #120 on: November 08, 2021, 07:03:19 PM »
That is one side. The other side it would of been reasonable for Kyle to believe they were trying to stop him from shooting another unarmed man.

I am referring to the second person shot.

Right, but in order for Rittenhouse to get off, self defense has to be a reasonable assumption for him to make, not the only assumption he could make.

The fact that another person could look at it differently doesn't change anything legally. As long as he saw it that way, and he was not unreasonable to do so, his self defense claim stands (at least as far as that requirement goes).

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #121 on: November 08, 2021, 07:33:56 PM »
Right, but in order for Rittenhouse to get off, self defense has to be a reasonable assumption for him to make, not the only assumption he could make.

The fact that another person could look at it differently doesn't change anything legally. As long as he saw it that way, and he was not unreasonable to do so, his self defense claim stands (at least as far as that requirement goes).
The four elements of self-defense are (1) unprovoked attack, (2) necessity, (3) proportionality, and (4) reasonable belief.

Was the second attack unprovoked?
Was either response proportional?
This is one big web.






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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #122 on: November 08, 2021, 07:39:11 PM »

Quote from: ExGingi
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #123 on: November 08, 2021, 09:15:03 PM »
It is unfortunate that prosecutors have a tendency to overcharge in these cases
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #124 on: November 08, 2021, 09:31:19 PM »
After watching more footage and listening to more of the trial, I haven't seen much regarding the second shooting, but I would say it definitely appears that the first and last shooting were in self defense. My opinion, based on what I think I saw. There also appears to be serious negligence as nobody seems to have been charged other than Rittenhouse, when there were undeniably others involved who committed crimes, some even admitting to them on the stand. I know there is a rumor of corruption within the police department there (not sure of that is conspiracy or legitimate) but take that with a mountain of salt or do your own research. One thing that keeps coming out more and more though, is how disgusting the people he shot, were. These were people that many people would happily wish death upon, yet when they face it as a political incident, they make theses individuals their saints. Not new, but still just as concerning.
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #125 on: November 08, 2021, 09:37:17 PM »


I know there is a rumor of corruption within the police department there (not sure of that is conspiracy or legitimate) but take that with a mountain of salt or do your own research.

The mayor, DA and the detective are all related

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #126 on: November 08, 2021, 09:39:24 PM »
After watching more footage and listening to more of the trial, I haven't seen much regarding the second shooting, but I would say it definitely appears that the first and last shooting were in self defense. My opinion, based on what I think I saw. There also appears to be serious negligence as nobody seems to have been charged other than Rittenhouse, when there were undeniably others involved who committed crimes, some even admitting to them on the stand. I know there is a rumor of corruption within the police department there (not sure of that is conspiracy or legitimate) but take that with a mountain of salt or do your own research. One thing that keeps coming out more and more though, is how disgusting the people he shot, were. These were people that many people would happily wish death upon, yet when they face it as a political incident, they make theses individuals their saints. Not new, but still just as concerning.
What crimes are you talking about? And what crimes were admitted to on the stand?
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #127 on: November 08, 2021, 10:14:18 PM »
What crimes are you talking about? And what crimes were admitted to on the stand?
The witness ccw had expired and he was walking around with a concealed weapon

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #128 on: November 08, 2021, 10:48:26 PM »
The witness ccw had expired and he was walking around with a concealed weapon
The defendant was carrying an illegal bought gun and illegally carrying. Are they part of the charges?
ETA: He was charged with the possession.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 10:52:48 PM by CountValentine »
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #129 on: November 08, 2021, 11:02:56 PM »
The defendant was carrying an illegal bought gun and illegally carrying. Are they part of the charges?
ETA: He was charged with the possession.
You asked what crimes were committed that werent charged and I mentioned the witness that was on the stand today and you tell me about the defendant

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #130 on: November 08, 2021, 11:06:28 PM »
You asked what crimes were committed that werent charged and I mentioned the witness that was on the stand today and you tell me about the defendant
How can he be charged with something he mentioned today? He might be charged after this.
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #131 on: November 08, 2021, 11:10:00 PM »
How can he be charged with something he mentioned today? He might be charged after this.
It sounded like everybody already knew that his ccw had expired
He said that at that time he didn't realize that it was expired

But hey I never knew that's a valid excuse to not be charged with a crime

Offline ah giten

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #132 on: November 09, 2021, 03:20:56 AM »
What crimes are you talking about? And what crimes were admitted to on the stand?
He also chased after Kyle and threatened/ pointed the gun, as he admitted today.

Until today he was just trying to help with medical. And he was just WALKING IN THE SAME DIRECTION as Rittenhouse.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #133 on: November 09, 2021, 07:04:05 AM »
He also chased after Kyle and threatened/ pointed the gun, as he admitted today.

Until today he was just trying to help with medical. And he was just WALKING IN THE SAME DIRECTION as Rittenhouse.
I guess you missed the part where he said he was going after an active shooter.
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Offline YitzyS

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #134 on: November 09, 2021, 07:21:37 AM »
I guess you missed the part where he said he was going after an active shooter.
This is Rittenhouse's trial, and the only thing that matters (today) is how Rittenhouse acted and perceived things. Anyone else's motive or thought process is completely non-relevant, and in fact, it even can distort the jury's vision wrongly.

We can have a separate thread to debate if those who tried to stop Rittenhouse were heroes of villains, and whether this was an avoidable or unavoidable tragedy. But today the jury must only see things from Rittenhouse's perspective, and to determine if he was justified in his actions.

Whether the witness thought he was going after an active shooter, or if it 'just wasn't me to shoot someone', is completely irrelevant as a sentiment.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #135 on: November 09, 2021, 07:37:31 AM »
This is Rittenhouse's trial, and the only thing that matters (today) is how Rittenhouse acted and perceived things. Anyone else's motive or thought process is completely non-relevant, and in fact, it even can distort the jury's vision wrongly.

We can have a separate thread to debate if those who tried to stop Rittenhouse were heroes of villains, and whether this was an avoidable or unavoidable tragedy. But today the jury must only see things from Rittenhouse's perspective, and to determine if he was justified in his actions.

Whether the witness thought he was going after an active shooter, or if it 'just wasn't me to shoot someone', is completely irrelevant as a sentiment.
I think you missed what was being discussed. We are discussing why others were not charged.

Now to your point. What Rittenhouse's perspective was does not matter if the jury finds it was not reasonable. He can be 100% convinced in his mind it was self-defense. If they jury finds that is not reasonable he is toast.

My question is does the defense have to prove the 4 elements of self-defense?
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Offline YitzyS

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #136 on: November 09, 2021, 07:48:21 AM »
I think you missed what was being discussed. We are discussing why others were not charged.
Sorry, I jumped in in middle of the conversation and I missed that.

Now to your point. What Rittenhouse's perspective was does not matter if the jury finds it was not reasonable. He can be 100% convinced in his mind it was self-defense. If they jury finds that is not reasonable he is toast.
That's true, but I think (IMO as a legal novice) that you are saying it wrong. If he thought it was self-defense, even unreasonably, then he theoretically should not go to jail. But we as a jury are supposed to infer that he DIDN'T do it for self-defense if we think it's unreasonable to make an inference that he did.

My question is does the defense have to prove the 4 elements of self-defense?
I didn't think about this enough to come to a conclusive opinion on this.
Monkeys don't fly unless you put them on airplanes

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #137 on: November 09, 2021, 08:00:06 AM »
Sorry, I jumped in in middle of the conversation and I missed that.
NP as this is JS.
That's true, but I think (IMO as a legal novice) that you are saying it wrong. If he thought it was self-defense, even unreasonably, then he theoretically should not go to jail. But we as a jury are supposed to infer that he DIDN'T do it for self-defense if we think it's unreasonable to make an inference that he did.
Just want to make sure everyone understands that just because he believes he acted in self-defense the jury still has to decide in the action was reasonable. To put it another way would a reasonable person feel that was self defense.
I as a reasonable person would have not shot the person but could still feel it was my right (self-defense) to do so.
I didn't think about this enough to come to a conclusive opinion on this.
Don't want an opinion on this one. I want what the law is.  :)
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #138 on: November 09, 2021, 08:17:13 AM »

That's true, but I think (IMO as a legal novice) that you are saying it wrong. If he thought it was self-defense, even unreasonably, then he theoretically should not go to jail. But we as a jury are supposed to infer that he DIDN'T do it for self-defense if we think it's unreasonable to make an inference that he did.


If he killed someone because he was unreasonably thought it was self defense then he needs to be locked up for other reasons.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse - guilty or not guilty?
« Reply #139 on: November 09, 2021, 08:25:15 AM »
Don't want an opinion on this one. I want what the law is.  :)
Think I found it.

Objectively Reasonable Fear of Injury or Death
The defendant cannot claim self-defense unless a reasonable person in the defendants situation would believe that self-defense is necessary to avoid injury or death. If the defendant honestly but unreasonably believes self-defense is necessary under the circumstances, a claim of imperfect self-defense may reduce the severity of the offense (State v. Faulkner, 2010). However, the defendant is still guilty of a crime, albeit a less serious crime.
If he killed someone because he was unreasonably thought it was self defense then he needs to be locked up for other reasons.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch