Author Topic: Musk: Is it a stunt?  (Read 2722 times)

Online Joel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2018
  • Posts: 4150
  • Total likes: 687
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 53
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Wyndham Diamond, Marriott Gold, IHG Platinum, National EE, Hertz PC, Enterprise Platinum
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2021, 08:25:07 PM »
Is he allowed to sell as much he wants? No limits in place?

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26475
  • Total likes: 3436
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2021, 08:29:18 PM »
Is he allowed to sell as much he wants? No limits in place?

Isnít it standard practice for insiders to provide advance notice of intent to transact so they donít get accused of insider trading? (I know Musk doesnít care for standard practice...)

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13356
  • Total likes: 8154
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2021, 09:53:02 PM »
They need to file an SEC-4
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26475
  • Total likes: 3436
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2021, 11:38:45 PM »
I would imagine he will be smart enough to sell with a strategy to avoid a crash.
It is not like he will sell all in one sale.

I don't think there's any way to offload that many shares within a short while without it affecting the price significantly, at least not for a short while.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13356
  • Total likes: 8154
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2021, 11:40:33 PM »
I don't think there's any way to offload that many shares within a short while without it affecting the price significantly, at least not for a short while.
Funds do it all the time
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13356
  • Total likes: 8154
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2021, 11:58:23 PM »
CNBC: Elon Musk faces a $15 billion tax bill, which is likely the real reason he's selling stock.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/elon-musk-faces-a-15-billion-tax-bill-which-is-likely-the-real-reason-hes-selling-stock.html
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14100
  • Total likes: 1999
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2021, 02:48:02 AM »
CNBC: Elon Musk faces a $15 billion tax bill, which is likely the real reason he's selling stock.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/elon-musk-faces-a-15-billion-tax-bill-which-is-likely-the-real-reason-hes-selling-stock.html

He can easily get non-recourse loans at 0.5% and avoid the capital gains tax he would incur by selling
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 6933
  • Total likes: 1451
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2021, 05:39:30 AM »
I don't think there's any way to offload that many shares within a short while without it affecting the price significantly, at least not for a short while.
the number of shares he's selling is about half of the daily volume. If he dumped it all on a quiet day, it would significantly affect the stock price, but if he spreads it out a bit you would never know.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Joe4007

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 3964
  • Total likes: 87
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2021, 08:59:29 AM »
the number of shares he's selling is about half of the daily volume. If he dumped it all on a quiet day, it would significantly affect the stock price, but if he spreads it out a bit you would never know.
The concern here isn't the oversupply of shares. It's the concept of the man-behind-everything believing the stock is overvalued at these levels, notwithstanding the narrative he wraps the sale in.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13356
  • Total likes: 8154
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2021, 09:23:24 AM »
He can easily get non-recourse loans at 0.5% and avoid the capital gains tax he would incur by selling
One of us is misunderstanding how that works.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10780
  • Total likes: 3609
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2021, 09:32:46 AM »
6% drop?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 11789
  • Total likes: 4021
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2021, 10:55:26 AM »
He can easily get non-recourse loans at 0.5% and avoid the capital gains tax he would incur by selling
The only way he avoids the tax is if he lets the options expire without exercising them. Even at a combined 54% tax rate, why in the world would he do that? Would that put him over the threshold for Child Tax Credits, FAFSA, Medicaid, or any other benefit (beyond the pure tax)?

https://www.investopedia.com/managing-wealth/get-most-out-employee-stock-options/
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Abey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2017
  • Posts: 735
  • Total likes: 124
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2021, 12:16:30 PM »
The only way he avoids the tax is if he lets the options expire without exercising them. Even at a combined 54% tax rate, why in the world would he do that? Would that put him over the threshold for Child Tax Credits, FAFSA, Medicaid, or any other benefit (beyond the pure tax)?

https://www.investopedia.com/managing-wealth/get-most-out-employee-stock-options/
Its incredibly funny how he does these things just to mess with people when he clearly said at code conference that he has these expiring options that were structured in such a way that he has to sell them or lose them yet people just jump to being madÖ thatís also probably the reason he moved to Texas

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 11789
  • Total likes: 4021
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2021, 04:12:17 PM »
Its incredibly funny how he does these things just to mess with people when he clearly said at code conference that he has these expiring options that were structured in such a way that he has to sell them or lose them yet people just jump to being madÖ thatís also probably the reason he moved to Texas

Except that it seems based on the article that CA still gets to tax the options because they were granted when he was a resident of CA.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13356
  • Total likes: 8154
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2021, 04:13:17 PM »
Except that it seems based on the article that CA still gets to tax the options because they were granted when he was a resident of CA.
Yes, but there are still the future options.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 11789
  • Total likes: 4021
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2021, 04:14:02 PM »
Yes, but there are still the future options.

Absolutely.

Taxes are a major reason TX and FL are seeing positive migration.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Abey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2017
  • Posts: 735
  • Total likes: 124
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2021, 08:46:19 PM »
Except that it seems based on the article that CA still gets to tax the options because they were granted when he was a resident of CA.
There is such a proposal in CA to prevent the runaways but to my knowledge is not yet law and as such Elon will be taxed at the time of exercising at which heís a Texas resident

Offline Abey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2017
  • Posts: 735
  • Total likes: 124
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2021, 08:50:18 PM »
He can easily get non-recourse loans at 0.5% and avoid the capital gains tax he would incur by selling
The way it was structured is exercise or lose it, Iím not a tax attorney but that is my limited understanding from what I read. This is all Elon just messing with people 

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 11789
  • Total likes: 4021
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2021, 08:52:32 PM »
There is such a proposal in CA to prevent the runaways but to my knowledge is not yet law and as such Elon will be taxed at the time of exercising at which heís a Texas resident

CNBC: Elon Musk faces a $15 billion tax bill, which is likely the real reason he's selling stock.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/elon-musk-faces-a-15-billion-tax-bill-which-is-likely-the-real-reason-hes-selling-stock.html

Quote
The options expire in August of next year. Yet in order to exercise them, Musk has to pay the income tax on the gain. Since the options are taxed as an employee benefit or compensation, they will be taxed at top ordinary-income levels, or 37% plus the 3.8% net investment tax. He will also have to pay the 13.3% top tax rate in California since the options were granted and mostly earned while he was a California tax resident.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Abey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2017
  • Posts: 735
  • Total likes: 124
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Musk: Is it a stunt?
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2021, 10:53:09 PM »

Question is if it counts when exercised or granted? Again Iím not an attorney, I just donít think the TX move was coincidental 🤷‍♂️