Author Topic: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim  (Read 34992 times)

Offline zaltz

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2021, 10:58:29 PM »
Before the kiruv movement these "infiltrations" would never have happened (at the very least not as commonly). The kiruv movement normalized the integration of people from outside the community, and most of the time that's fine, but occasionally it leaves us vulnerable to "infiltration" by non-scrupulous individuals.
This doesn't mean in any way we should stop or even slow down bringing yiden closer to yidishkeit.
A rov that is being mesader kidushin is supposed to make sure he is marrying off someone jewish...

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2021, 11:01:36 PM »
Before the kiruv movement these "infiltrations" would never have happened (at the very least not as commonly). The kiruv movement normalized the integration of people from outside the community, and most of the time that's fine, but occasionally it leaves us vulnerable to "infiltration" by non-scrupulous individuals.
Sounds like a spy novel.
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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2021, 11:23:47 PM »
This doesn't mean in any way we should stop or even slow down bringing yiden closer to yidishkeit.
A rov that is being mesader kidushin is supposed to make sure he is marrying off someone jewish...
100%. It's just a side effect, IMO.

Not saying that the kiruv rabbi is to blame here at all. Was generalizing why this seems to happen more often - and I think it's because our communities are more trusting of outsiders due to the kiruv movement (as opposed to previous generations).

From what I understand kiruv rabbis are very sensitive and hyper aware as to who's a Jew and who's not. However, to a layman, in general, that's not a concern. "Oh he's just a BT" is a fleeting thought which explains away any suspicions. 

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Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2021, 11:27:11 PM »
Sounds like a spy novel.
When my father was in school, a similar story happened. A man enrolled in the school claiming he was Jewish, and after he gained trust, he set up a Ponzi scheme and stole tens of thousands of dollars from the students (graduate students). He then skipped town, and the FBI came down to investigate and it turned out that he was already on their Wanted List.

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2021, 08:46:40 AM »
Something tells me that there was more to the store like abuse etc. If not, then why didn't they keep it quiet and have him undergo a גיור. After all he was in Yeshiva for years and was well integrated in the community.

if he was honest and genuine why would he lie about it in the first place
why not just say you want to be mgiyur

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2021, 08:52:10 AM »
100%. It's just a side effect, IMO.

Not saying that the kiruv rabbi is to blame here at all. Was generalizing why this seems to happen more often - and I think it's because our communities are more trusting of outsiders due to the kiruv movement (as opposed to previous generations).

From what I understand kiruv rabbis are very sensitive and hyper aware as to who's a Jew and who's not. However, to a layman, in general, that's not a concern. "Oh he's just a BT" is a fleeting thought which explains away any suspicions.

i can see this being the case in other communities but hard for me to apply it to the Syrian community they are very tight knit despite people being on different levels in frumkiet and they are very makpid when it comes to yichus which is why this story is so mind boggling ... i know someone personally with a very rich yichus although not Syrian who was engaged to a Syrian girl but her family , rav and community were very against it despite all the proof provided to them and ultimately made her break it off

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2021, 11:30:36 AM »
Before the kiruv movement these "infiltrations" would never have happened (at the very least not as commonly). The kiruv movement normalized the integration of people from outside the community, and most of the time that's fine, but occasionally it leaves us vulnerable to "infiltration" by non-scrupulous individuals.
so you are missing the good old times when people were not coming into the community but only leaving it??

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2021, 12:46:34 PM »
I thought the Syrian Jewish community was very strict on these things, how could they not verify
The Rabboim of the Syrian Community sign a proclmation regarding Geirim every 5 or 10 years to make sure this does not happen. I am wondering the same

Offline AsherO

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2021, 12:54:54 PM »
I thought the Syrian Jewish community was very strict on these things, how could they not verify

Did he claim to be convert? NAFAIK

The Rabboim of the Syrian Community sign a proclmation regarding Geirim every 5 or 10 years to make sure this does not happen. I am wondering the same

Is that why? AFAIK they don't convert people in the first place, and I don't think this is the reason.
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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2021, 01:05:29 PM »
Before the kiruv movement these "infiltrations" would never have happened (at the very least not as commonly). The kiruv movement normalized the integration of people from outside the community, and most of the time that's fine, but occasionally it leaves us vulnerable to "infiltration" by non-scrupulous individuals.
while in theory you might think so, in practice, any Rov doing siddur kidushin knows to do a more thorough birur yahadus in cases without a frum past.
and any kiruv rabbi knows how important it is to present the mesader kidushin with nothing but the truth

this seems to have been a rookie mesader kidushin mistake.

but yes, before (or outside of) kiruv, rookies (or roshei yeshiva who aren't practicing rabbonim...) could be mesader kidushin, with lower stakes

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2021, 01:09:37 PM »
The Rabboim of the Syrian Community sign a proclmation regarding Geirim every 5 or 10 years to make sure this does not happen. I am wondering the same
They don't marry geirim and it has nothing at all to do with this.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2021, 01:15:02 PM »
while in theory you might think so, in practice, any Rov doing siddur kidushin knows to do a more thorough birur yahadus in cases without a frum past.
and any kiruv rabbi knows how important it is to present the mesader kidushin with nothing but the truth

this seems to have been a rookie mesader kidushin mistake.

but yes, before (or outside of) kiruv, rookies (or roshei yeshiva who aren't practicing rabbonim...) could be mesader kidushin, with lower stakes

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2021, 02:43:26 PM »
this seems to have been a rookie mesader kidushin mistake.

It's completely possible that the Chabad Rabbi relied on the Mesader Kiddusin and vice versa. Not that that makes it okay, but it might not have anything to do with any of the Rabbis involved being a "rookie".
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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2021, 03:05:57 PM »
They don't marry geirim and it has nothing at all to do with this.
What's the reason ?

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2021, 03:13:47 PM »
What's the reason ?

English translation of the Hebrew proclamations of 1935 and 1946, and the 1984 proclamation (originally in English).

A RABBINICAL PROCLAMATION

Adar 5695 (February 1935)

We have observed the conditions prevailing in the general Jewish community, where some youth have left the haven of their faith and have assimilated with non-Jews; in certain cases they have made efforts to marry gentiles, sometimes without any effort to convert them, and other times an effort is made for conversion to our faith, an action which is absolutely invalid and worthless in the eyes of the law of our Torah. We have therefore bestirred ourselves to build and establish an iron wall to protect our identity and religious integrity and to bolster the strong foundations of our faith and religious purity which we have maintained for many centuries going back to our country of origin, Syria.

We, the undersigned rabbis, constituting the Religious Court, together with the Executive Committee of the Magen David Congregation and the outstanding laymen of the community, do hereby decree, with the authority of our Holy Torah, that no male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non-Jews; this law covers conversions, which we consider to be fictitious and valueless. We further decree that no future rabbinic court of the community should have the right or authority to convert male or female non-Jews who seek to marry into our community. We have followed the example of the community in Argentina, which maintains a rabbinic ban on any of the marital arrangements enumerated above, an edict which has received the wholehearted and unqualified endorsement of the Chief Rabbinate in Israel. This responsa is discussed in detail in Devar Sha’ul, Yoreh Deah, Part II to Part VI. In the event that any member of our community should ignore our ruling and marry, their issue will have to suffer the consequences. Announcements to this effect will be made advising the community not to allow any marriage with children of such converts. We are confident that the Jewish People are a holy people and they will adhere to the decision of their rabbis and will not conceive of doing otherwise.

Chief Rabbi Haim Tawil

Rabbi Jacob Kassin

Rabbi Murad Masalton

Rabbi Moshe Gindi

Rabbi Moshe Dweck Kassab

A SUBSEQUENT CLARIFICATION OF THE ORIGINAL PROCLAMATION

Adar 5706 (February 1946)

On the 9th day of Adar I in the year 5706 corresponding to the 10th day of February, 1946, the rabbis of the community and the Committee of Magen David Congregation once again discussed the question of intermarriage and conversions. The following religious rabbinic decisions were promulgated and accepted:

I. Our community will never accept any converts, male or female, for marriage.

2. The rabbi will not perform any religious ceremonies for such couples, i.e., marriages, circumcisions, bar mitzvahs, etc. In fact, the Congregation’s premises will be barred to them for use of any religious or social nature.

3. The Mesadrim of the Congregation will not accord any honors to the convert or one married to a convert, such as offering him an Aliyah to the Sefer Torah. In addition, the aforesaid person, male or female, will not be allowed to purchase a seat, permanently or for the holidays, in our Congregations.

4. After death of said person, he or she is not to be buried on the cemetery of our community, known as Rodfe Zedek, regardless of financial considerations.

Seal of the Beth Din of Magen David Congregation

Chief Rabbi Jacob S. Kassin

REAFFIRMING OUR TRADITION

WHEREAS, throughout the history of our community, our rabbis and lay leaders have always recognized the threat of conversions and the danger of intermarriage and assimilation; and have issued warnings and proclamations concerning these evils in February 1935, February 1946 and in May 1972. NOW, THEREFORE, we assembled rabbis and Presidents of the congregations and organizations of the Syrian and Near Eastern Jewish communities of Greater New York and New Jersey do now and hereby reaffirm these proclamations, and pledge ourselves to uphold, enforce and promulgate these regulations. We further declare that Shabbat Shuvah of each year be designated as a day to urge our people to rededicate themselves to these principles. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, we have caused this document to be prepared and have affixed our signatures thereto, at a special convocation held on this third day of Sivan 5744 corresponding to the 3rd day of June 1984.

Dr. Jacob S. Kassin, Chief Rabbi

(Signed by the rabbis and presidents of every synagogue, yeshivah, and social organization of the Sephardic Jewish communities of New York and New Jersey.)

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2021, 03:17:21 PM »
The edict has nothing to do with this.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2021, 03:54:54 PM »
It's completely possible that the Chabad Rabbi relied on the Mesader Kiddusin and vice versa. Not that that makes it okay, but it might not have anything to do with any of the Rabbis involved being a "rookie".
sidur kidushin involves birur yahadus. that has nothing to do with who hosted him for shabbos dinners years ago.
if the rabbi wrote the kesubah without getting specific details (names/dates/documents) from someone (chabad rabbi or otherwise), that is the mistake

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Re: Newlywed sephardic woman in brooklyn discovers her husband may be muslim
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2021, 04:42:01 PM »
sidur kidushin involves birur yahadus. that has nothing to do with who hosted him for shabbos dinners years ago.
if the rabbi wrote the kesubah without getting specific details (names/dates/documents) from someone (chabad rabbi or otherwise), that is the mistake

In other countries, ie Europe, Israel, Australia, South Africa no Rov will be mesader kiddushin if there is no shtar from the local Beis Din authorising the marriage.
One has to bring in birth certificates, marriage certificates / kesubah of parents and grandparents.