Finding corporate info on a nonprofit corp (shul)

[AsherO]

There is a classic case now in the news with the Park East Synagogue, board is completely loyal to the top Rabbi etc etc עיין שם

FTFY

[Yehuda57]

Without any lay leadership, elections, transparency about finances etc., how do places like this expect the core frum members to donate anything substantial to them? Our shul has no known machers. The vast majority of the donations likely come from people who show up there a few times a year and don't know any better.

Without knowing the details of your situation, it sounds like the road you're traveling down will just create a bitter machlokes and neither side will end up satisfied. Save yourself the trouble and open a breakaway minyan now. You'll have the same machlokes, but without the months or years of fighting about bylaws, finances, and nepotism before opening the breakaway. (/s? I'm honestly not sure.)

[Dawie]

FTFY

@Yehuda57 would call them "jabroers"

[WonderingYid]

Without any lay leadership, elections, transparency about finances etc., how do places like this expect the core frum members to donate anything substantial to them? Our shul has no known machers. The vast majority of the donations likely come from people who show up there a few times a year and don't know any better.

Can you talk to the rov?

[AsherO]

Can you talk to the rov?

He’s either a part of the problem (e.g. in cases where he founded the Shul and has the board in his pocket), or he’s an employee and won’t risk his job standing up to his employers.

[WonderingYid]

He’s either a part of the problem (e.g. in cases where he founded the Shul and has the board in his pocket), or he’s an employee and won’t risk his job standing up to his employers.

Time to switch Shuls?

[Lurker]

So it was you who yanked my tallis off at the farbrengen last week

Halevai. IYH in the near future.

[Lurker]

Without any lay leadership, elections, transparency about finances etc., how do places like this expect the core frum members to donate anything substantial to them? Our shul has no known machers. The vast majority of the donations likely come from people who show up there a few times a year and don't know any better.

the road you're traveling down will just create a bitter machlokes and neither side will end up satisfied

It's important to remember that you just arrived there, and there are people who have built whatever infrastructure attracted you to move to that place. While I sympathize with your situation (BTDT), anything you do needs to be done with the utmost respect to the history of the community. You can have the best intentions right now, but at the end of the day, whatever gains you may make will be cancelled out by the division you'll create. IME, certain things can be improved by working within the current infrastructure and finding solutions which make things better for both the leadership and the congregants, and other things just need to be swallowed and/or worked around.

[ari3]

Without any lay leadership, elections, transparency about finances etc., how do places like this expect the core frum members to donate anything substantial to them? Our shul has no known machers. The vast majority of the donations likely come from people who show up there a few times a year and don't know any better.

Why would people donate? Because they like the work they are doing and want to participate in it or because they are benefitting from it. I donate to my shul and to other local shuls and never asked for any info like who is on the board or to see the financials nor do I plan on. I trust the people running them and like the work they are doing.

If you don't like this place and how it's run then don't donate and go elsewhere. Problem is the next place might not be any better.

BTW did you bother asking those in charge for the info you are looking for are you just trying to stir up problems behind their backs.

[zh cohen]

The vast majority of the donations likely come from people who show up there a few times a year and don't know any better.

So if you are not paying the bills where do you get the chutzpah to mess with the people who do? The sense of entitlement is breathtaking...

[nucheiner]

So if you are not paying the bills where do you get the chutzpah to mess with the people who do? The sense of entitlement is breathtaking...

He didn’t get Shlishi! So lets go after the finances and burn the place down! Worst case scenario go for a mail fraud charge.

Find another place to daven or another hobby.

[Lurker]

So if you are not paying the bills where do you get the chutzpah to mess with the people who do? The sense of entitlement is breathtaking...

With all due respect, people like @LAX_Esq, myself, and many others in small OOT places may not pay the actual bills, but we're paying the bills. When a community leader cries poverty and asks for money to cover the shul's electric bill, mortgage, or other miscellaneous community expense, then how the money is being managed becomes our business. This request usually isn't presented as tzedakah, but rather as an obligation for those who utilize the community infrastructure. I've been on both sides of this equation, and I wish it was more black and white, but it's not.

[Lurker]

He didn’t get Shlishi! So lets go after the finances and burn the place down! Worst case scenario go for a mail fraud charge.

Find another place to daven or another hobby.

I may not agree with his approach, but you've obviously never left your little shtetl. This isn't Boro Park or Lakewood. There is nowhere else to daven. And the problem is much larger than a shteible's finances. An OOT shul is the core of the entire community's infrastructure. Funny business at the core means you need to find a new place to live, not walk across the street to Reb Zeligs for shachris.

[LAX_Esq]

So, I managed to get the articles of incorporation which are from the 1980s. The current shul basically inherited a defunct shul. The original articles say that there shall be members, and applications for membership shall be in writing on an approved form and membership shall be approved by a committee. There aren't any updated articles.

The bylaws aren't public so we have no idea what they say about election of directors, annual meetings of the members, etc. But surely the current leadership isn't doing anything of that sort.

Based on the original articles, could the shul members have any rights? Technically, nobody is legally a member if there is no membership committee and no membership.

[rs242]

So, I managed to get the articles of incorporation which are from the 1980s. The current shul basically inherited a defunct shul. The original articles say that there shall be members, and applications for membership shall be in writing on an approved form and membership shall be approved by a committee. There aren't any updated articles.

The bylaws aren't public so we have no idea what they say about election of directors, annual meetings of the members, etc. But surely the current leadership isn't doing anything of that sort.

Based on the original articles, could the shul members have any rights? Technically, nobody is legally a member if there is no membership committee and no membership.

Are the members paying membership? Where is the bulk of the funding coming from? Where ever the funds are coming from should be the control for the shul. If the members are coming up with the money it should be giving them enough control to ask to see the books, if the rabbi is coming up with the money on his own (fundraising etc) you don’t really have a right here.
P.s. I’m sorry for getting involved with your business but u put it on a public form so …

[LAX_Esq]

Are the members paying membership? Where is the bulk of the funding coming from? Where ever the funds are coming from should be the control for the shul. If the members are coming up with the money it should be giving them enough control to ask to see the books, if the rabbi is coming up with the money on his own (fundraising etc) you don’t really have a right here.
P.s. I’m sorry for getting involved with your business but u put it on a public form so …

You're asking about "members" in the practical sense, not the legal sense? I'm not sure there are any "members" in the legal sense and within the meaning of the articles of incorporation.

Even in the practical sense, the shul has no official membership (no application, no dues, etc.) and I suppose there are no members. The daily/Shabbos regulars are likely donating a little bit and a few might be donating a fair amount, but there's also a lot of money probably coming from irregular people who show up once a year on a yartzeit and feel guilty and hand the rabbi an envelope.

Even if the core group of regulars aren't big machers, the rabbi can't afford to alienate them. There's just barely a daily minyan, and any sort of rebellion would put the entire shul in jeopardy. So if some of the regulars did get together and demand to see the books and would threaten to spin off into a new shul if the rabbi refused, it could be a serious problem for the rabbi.

[ckmk47]

So if some of the regulars did get together and demand to see the books and would threaten to spin off into a new shul if the rabbi refused, it could be a serious problem for the rabbi.

Do it softly.  Bederech shalom.  Ask to see the books. If your concerns are something you can politely articulate, explain why you want to see them.

[yelped]

I still can't wrap my head around this. What are you concerned about if all the regulars are just paying a few dollars here and there for Aliyahs and the like? That doesn't sound like it would cover more than the electric bill, if that. You're not even paying membership dues. What exactly is your concern here?

Is there a piece of real estate that you are concerned about?

[gozalim]

If your concerns are something you can politely articulate, explain why you want to see them.

and if they can't be, then maybe ask yourself

What are you concerned about if all the regulars are just paying a few dollars here and there for Aliyahs and the like? That doesn't sound like it would cover more than the electric bill, if that. You're not even paying membership dues. What exactly is your concern here?

Is there a piece of real estate that you are concerned about?

[Dan]

Don't try and fix what can't be fixed.
If you're this unhappy and you have enough other unhappy people, just start something on your own that can be proud of and enjoy donating to and going to.
If there aren't enough other unhappy people and there's no other place to daven, you just need to suck it up and you can always refuse to donate without more transparency.

I spent literally hundreds of hours trying everything to fix what turned out to be a predictably unfixable situation. But the good that came out of it was a highly motivated young core that wanted to participate in opening a new shul.